race matters

[Dave A]

The law cannot protect people from their own stupidity & laziness.

I always take care to differentiate between stupidity and ignorance. And when it comes to the ways of building wealth, I would definitely add ignorance as a problem. (I'd also tend to rephrase laziness as a lack of self-discipline, but that's probably not worth any serious debate).

Anyway, more to matters at hand. Here's a line of thought I had many years ago which has helped me put this race business in perspective:

Many years ago I remember the results of a study being released that had determined the average IQ of a white was higher than the average IQ of a black - claiming a genetic predisposition towards higher intelligence among the whites. Before we blame this on our apartheid regime of the time, I do recall it was an American study. But that said, the USA was not without its racial predjudice problems at the time either, so who knows how truly objective that study ever was.

Of course, the "results" suited every white supremacist around the world, and they wouldn't hesitate to raise it as justification for their racial predjudice against black folk.

And here's my big point -
Arguing whether it is true or not is a waste of breath.
True or not it is useless information that proves and justifies nothing.
The average is absolutely, completely and utterly irrelevant when it comes to looking at the qualities of individuals.

At the risk of putting (or this being taken) badly - Pick a white male at random and I'll find you a brighter/stronger/more good looking/more dynamic/more industrious/more well-spoken (add your own "quality" obsession here) black female. What use those averages now? Some slight shift in probability at most (perhaps) - but totally irrelevant when you're stacking up two random individuals against each other.

The problem with "average" and "typical" is that massive diversity Adrian referred to.
When it comes to people, I don't care about average, and I suggest no-one should.

What we should care about is the qualities (or specific needs) of the individual in front of us.
Or the family without a bread winner.
Or the kids having to go to a badly run school.
Or the workers who have to work in dangerous conditions.

The list goes on and on - a list of real needs and qualities that's got nothing to do with race.

If I do have a stand-out "group" predjudice, it's with professional politicians. They're in the business of mustering support. It's what puts food on their table, a roof over their head and money in the bank. And if they haven't got a worthwhile thought in their head - if they don't have a constructive leadership role to contribute, it's got to be awfully tempting to go for the "low hanging fruit", even if it's actually harmful to society.

And unfortunately, in South Africa at the moment, race is low hanging fruit.

Great leaders don't need it.
But I'm quite sure there's more than enough wannabees who recognise it's their only chance on the political gravy train.

[adrianh]

Dave though I agree with you the problem still remains that government policy is based upon race. Where an individual is discriminated against for being a particular race. Now of course, this doesn't only apply to South Africa. The broader policy does colour the way in which individuals interact in that the one is made to feel superior to the other. When a company is told that it cannot do business with certain entities because it doesn't have a particular racial profile and it is known that there are people of a particular race available that fit the bill exactly but cannot be hired then the resentment becomes personal.

How does the saying go: Culture adheres to the law of gravity. It doesn't flow from the bottom up, it flows from the top down.

I agree with your views on averages, it says nothing about the individual but it does colour ones wider views. When you get 200 CV's for a job, one would very quickly profile those CV's based on the corporate culture vs the perceived culture of the individual. If your company consists, for whatever reason of 99% married white woman, would you consider interviewing every Moslem man in the list, or by the same token, if your workforce consisted primarily of older Muslem men, would you consider interviewing every young black girl. So, this means that we have to, for the sake of "culture" profile people so that they are able to work in harmony without cultural / racial conflict. I think that the word "Race" is abused to mean black vs white - of course the racial divided is much more subtle and complex.

The reality is that there are racial divisions and it is quite acceptable for those divisions to exist. I don't get Chinese humour and I also (on the whole) don't like Chinese food. I am sure that they feel the same about us. We are all free to be who we are and to feel cumfortable amongst our own. The problem is that one cannot force the different cultures together and expect them to mesh from the word go and it makes it so much more difficult if the powers that be have a clear bias.

[Dave A]

Dave though I agree with you the problem still remains that government policy is based upon race. Where an individual is discriminated against for being a particular race.

True. Doesn't mean it's right and in my view that needs to change.

The reality is that there are racial divisions and it is quite acceptable for those divisions to exist.

Unless I'm misinterpreting your meaning in "divisions", no I don't think it's acceptable.

I don't get Chinese humour and I also (on the whole) don't like Chinese food.

Is that really a serious issue? Is that legitimate cause for predjudice?

The problem I see with racial discrimination in particular is it is the lowest of low blows - because there is absolutely nothing you can do to change your race.

You can learn to appreciate Chinese humour if you want to. You could cultivate a palate for Chinese food and appreciate its nuance.

When it comes to race, you can't change your race. But you can change your perception of race as an issue.

One's race only has value in a society bigotted enough to ascribe value to it.

[Justloadit]

Quote Originally Posted by adrianh
Dave though I agree with you the problem still remains that government policy is based upon race. Where an individual is discriminated against for being a particular race.

Quote Originally Posted by Dave A
True. Doesn't mean it's right and in my view that needs to change.

This is why I think that the songs sung by the ANCYL - 'Kill the boer" goes with Adrian's and Dave's statements, they are keeping the hatred and the discrimination alive. What does a 5 or 6 or 7 year old hearing this song think?
Oh this is a an old war song so the words are meaningless! I think not, it starts to instill the racism at an early age, and by the time he is a young adult, he is already prejudiced to the world around him. If as a young kid he asks his parents why 'Kill the boer' is being sung, they will naturally tell him that this was aimed at killing the bad white man, they are not going to further tell him that now it is OK as we have all made peace and are living as one nation.

[murdock]

and to think the only reason we are diffrent colours and have diffrent hair etc is because of the climate we are suppose to live...

[tec0]

Well this synthetic malediction was created by people to control other people. If not race then religion, if not religion then nobility. Is it not also true that within the pages of history one would find war within the same race? Is it not true that religion singlehandedly became one of the primary causes for war?

It is not wrong for a female or male to be attracted to the same race. Fact is nature colour codes everything to insure survivability purity of the species accepted that inbreeding will weaken a race but today technology can ultimately eliminate inbreeding so I do not consider it to be a problem anymore for any race. To predicate otherwise and amalgamate races is personal opinion and "individual" selection, it is not an obligation and that is worth remembering.

In all honesty race is a factor because it a tool. It cannot be anything else and to make it something else IS a human motive. You do not get "less human or more human" You only get "human" race is nature's way to differentiate and to insure strength and purity of that race.

To state that it is anything else is factually a minded attempt to create upset and disturb the balance or stability of the populace at large.

[Blurock]

This is why I think that the songs sung by the ANCYL - 'Kill the boer" goes with Adrian's and Dave's statements, they are keeping the hatred and the discrimination alive. What does a 5 or 6 or 7 year old hearing this song think?
Oh this is a an old war song so the words are meaningless! I think not, it starts to instill the racism at an early age.

Exactly! It is not about what is being said, it is about what is being heard. Kids that were born after 1994 certainly had nothing to do with the previous government. Not even kids who were born 10 years earlier.

What does a 10 year old or a 20 year old white kid hear when confronted by an unruly mob singing "kill the Boer"? In view of the increasing number of farm murders where even babies are killed and mutilated, women are raped and elderly people are tortured in the most inhumane and cruel ways, are they expected to embrace these thugs and sing along with them?

I am not saying that all black people are bad. On the contrary, I have worked with some very competent and astute black colleagues and have made lasting friendships with many people of colour. My gripe is with those stupid people who think that its OK to hurt any one who does not look, talk or think like they do.

The leader of the youth league has declared war against white people. He has called them pigs and thieves. His racist rhetoric has no end and is then emphasised by his singing of this racist song. He has no respect for his elders or for anyone else. If not disciplined now, this man and his mobs will do this beautiful country so much harm that we may never recover from it.

[HR-Student]

This idea of love and hate - what is it exactly - The reason I ask is because you seem to base your argument on the notion but I want you to define it. I say this because I am emotionally flatline. I can't say I am overcome but a particular feeling on way or the othr for people. I like some people and I dislike some people, from an intellectual point of view, but that's about it. I want freedom to choose my life simply because I do not want to deal with other people's $h1t all day long.

I think that it is a very serious mistake to look at the world through lenses colored by emotion. Yes love is nice for a while but when the chemical reaction in your brain wears off what then?



Life isn't that simple. That fact that all humans have 2 legs, 2 arms and look more or less alike doesn't make them the same. I, like many people don't want to offer each other love and don't care too much for the differences. We simply want to be left alone to live our lives as we choose (and by that I don't mean to step on anybody else's rights).

Why is it that people think that evolution & genetics apply to animals and not to humans? Why is it that people believe that even though Chinese and Japanese and all sorts of people look totally different that their mental make up and capabilities are exactly the same. We are told not to have children with our brothers, sisters & cousins (forget about the moral issues for the moment) exactly for the reason that the genetics select the worst combinations and create flawed children. No my friend, people are vastly different, genetically, physically (outside and inside including wiring of the brain) and then of course mentally (from nature & nurture)

This country tries to toss a net in the sea, catch all sorts of different fish and then force them to cohabitate in a fish bowl that isn't quite suitable for all the fish. Unless the government provide a platform where the guppy and the shark get to stand shoulder to shoulder, the shark will eat the guppy (sooner or later) (if the guppy is clever he might pre-empt the situation by getting his buddies the pirhanas to eat the sharks). It is simply nature's way.

Love is not emotion Adrianh. Love is the act of giving someone something that they desire in order to get what you desire.That person can be anyone irrespective of race, color, background, sex or religion. That is why it is said that love has no discrimination, only emotion does simply because it is based on the false perception of fear, guilt and false pride and humility. Once you begin to love yourself, you will realize that simple point.You cannot have riches without service to others, neither can people have your service without enriching you, irrespective of their race or color. And so far business provides the perfect means to do that.

On the notion that I said people are the same, what words that I typed gave you the impression that I believe that we are the same? Nature is beautified by diversity and differences, humans are not any different. Each race has certain traits which are more concentrated within it than the others. Also everyone in each race is different and has skills and abilities which when properly reared in an environment which is conducive to their development of talents, will contribute greatly to society. Is it not true that people with big differences can come and work together for a special purpose? In this case, not only will their differences help them but they will compliment one another and if they work together they will achieve their purpose much faster and more effectively?

[HR-Student]

In soccer terms you may rag, insult even smack a supporter of the other team 'Pirates/Bucs' but you both love soccer, so you have more in common than most.

When it comes to race I believe the vast majority of people have more in common than differences, its just that they dwell on the differences instead of the commonalities.

I remember growing up the Afrikaans and English kids used to ignore one another, mostly because of language and a little because of religion, but once we got older and got to know one another we became more friendly, the problem was with the older generation who were still fighting the 'Boer War'.

I'm sure it is the same with black kids, Zulu, Xhosa etc.

The racial divide is because of history and prejudice, I have found I get on better with younger blacks because i find the older generation are a lot more patriarchal same with older Afrikaans guys I don't agree with that.

The next thing is culture, then class, man it is complicated, then there are other religions besides Christianity, why will a Hindu parent want their kids to marry another Hindu from the same social class?

There is a sales technique called mirroring, where you act and talk like the customer you are selling to, the reason is people like people that like and are the same as them. Trouble is who mirrors who?

The past always comes back to prevent us from progress. No matter how much we can deny it, it is not that there is not enough resources for us to live lavishly on, it is just that the guilt and fears of our pasts prevents us from doing so. I remember an experience i once had with an elderly afrikanner some time ago. This man still carried with him hate and resentments towards the English for the concentration camps they constructed which lead to the death of thousands of Afrikanner women and children. All this still haunted him and kept him in an emotional concentration camp of his own. His business was suffering since somehow he didn't take pleasure in serving anyone who was black and English and so they would come once and seldom returned. I know that somehow someway those emotions are going to be passed on to his children and so forth and so forth. It is a tough issue to deal with.

[adrianh]

You are way too idealistic ...

Love is not emotion Adrianh. Love is the act of giving someone something that they desire in order to get what you desire.

Since when?

The problem with words like love is that people get to make up their own definitions.

You cannot have riches without service to others, neither can people have your service without enriching you, irrespective of their race or color.

Ok, so a person sell Cocaine and serves others and in return he gets money - and this is "love" ...come come, you have to put a bit more thought into your definition of "love"

Is it not true that people with big differences can come and work together for a special purpose? In this case, not only will their differences help them but they will compliment one another and if they work together they will achieve their purpose much faster and more effectively?

This statement is far too broad and sweeping. Differences can be very positive but they can also be very negative.

Look, I personally have no problem with race or ethnicity or whatever you want to call it. I also inderstand that there are differences and that those differences are significant. I am quite happy for other races to lead their lives as they see fit without me having to shove my values down their throats. Be that all as it may, the goverment proclaims non-racial values in the UN and then comes home to sing about killing boers and to place young white people at a disadvantage. How can a society such as ours become colour blind and cohesive is the "leaders" have a blatant disregard for the rights of whites. Yes, you and I can sit together and have a beer, but when we both go for a job interview, I am stuffed because I do not fit the "racial" quota