Oh My Gosh!

[Debbiedle]

Okay guys, I am shell shocked!!

I am no withering willow. Strong minded, opinionated and downright stubborn are pretty much words that get bandied around behind my back all the time!

I have just come from taking my Grade 8 kid to a debating contest - these kids 14 years old are goooooooood! They discuss issues like animal rights vs traditional culture - think Tony Yengeni (sp?) , should legislation limiting the number of children to each family be implemented etc.

They refute, rebut, propose, oppose, decline points of order, call on points of order and provide closing arguments like any good lawyer would. Sure sometimes their points are invalid, but if this is the level at which our kids are being asked to think and act - I look forward to our future BIG TIME!

In the interim, is there someone out there that can protect us unsuspecting parents against aspirant debaters?

[Dave A]

Now I wonder how teenagers got that reputation of being difficult They grow up so fast, don't you think?

I think most teenagers have the capacity to be argumentative. A good teach on prodedure and it starts sounding pretty slick. Add experience and they become.... us.

I wonder how our parents felt?

[Debbiedle]

Dave, this had a lot to do with procedure and research and with our teenagers being very very switched on! After last night, I must admit there are some pretty deep thinking, hard hitting youngsters out there, that spare no sympathy for idiots, definitely not for old fashioned ways of thinking and they are not afraid to challenge! Viva!

[duncan drennan]

They refute, rebut, propose, oppose, decline points of order, call on points of order and provide closing arguments like any good lawyer would. Sure sometimes their points are invalid, but if this is the level at which our kids are being asked to think and act - I look forward to our future BIG TIME!

So my question is, if people are taught to think critically at a school level, what causes that to decline? Is it just that at school you HAVE to, or do people just get too busy/lazy/fishing/etc. that they don't spend time thinking about their own motivations/thoughts/etc. critically?

[Debbiedle]

Hi Duncan

If you could see the numbers you'd realise why. From a school of 1400 pupils , 2 supporters that were or are not in another team. I think the activity does not have the razzmatazz that goes along with rugby, athletics etc. I have offered my marketing services to try and change that in this school.

Our school was annihilated by the other school, but I think with a huge amount of effort it will be great to promote this for "general" consumptions amongst the learners!

[Dave A]

So my question is, if people are taught to think critically at a school level, what causes that to decline?

I'm curious. Why would you think critical thinking declines after school?

Our school was annihilated by the other school, but I think with a huge amount of effort it will be great to promote this for "general" consumptions amongst the learners!

I'm amazed at the impact of the standard set by the responsible staff member/s in any extracurricular activity. This has massive influence on the results. And I'm sure applies to regular school activities too.

If you wish to raise the average standard of education, you need to raise the average standard of the teachers.

And before I get jumped on by members of the teaching fraternity, I did say average. If our goal is to improve the product of our school system (the results of the pupils), the big investment needs to go into the teachers. I suspect we've spent too much of our resources on converting to O.B.E. at a time when we really needed to focus more energy and resources on building teacher capacity and capability.

Oh, if only we had the benefit of 20/20 hindsight when that decision was made.

[duncan drennan]

I'm curious. Why would you think critical thinking declines after school?

Hmmm...one of those broad statements that when you look back on it, it doesn't seem so right

This is how my thinking went, 1) misunderstanding of the size of the debate team - I though it was a larger group, 2) gross generalization with regards to the amount of critical thinking that goes on (based on my personal experience), 3) disparity between critical thinking in school (based on 1st assumption) when compared to general amount of critical thinking, 4) question: why the disparity, is there a decline when we're not pushed to think for ourselves?

So that was the process. When I thought about it a bit more the big flaw I see in the reasoning is that there is not necessarily a large group of critical thinkers to begin with.

So that's my flawed reasoning

[Dave A]

I kinda understood where you were coming from. Sometimes there is a sense that people stop thinking/think less after they've left school. My theory is that we've grown since.

There are moments when I come face to face with my own naiveté when I was younger - and I'm talking 20 to 30, when I was so sure I really had a grip on things. I'll probably feel the same way about me now when I'm sixty.

And often it's at times when I'm about to be critical about some twenty something and I go "But that was me."

Pretty hard to explain - it's about relative paradigms, maybe.

[duncan drennan]

Pretty hard to explain - it's about relative paradigms, maybe.

No, I DO get it (and experience it pretty much the same way).

[Dave A]

Reading it again, probably shifting paradigms would cover it better.

In terms of growth (or the opposite) after school, a major factor might be whether our horisons expand or contract. I suppose it is possible for some that their horisons contract, which might lead to going backwards from whatever base one had at school. But on average I'd think there'd be growth.

And of course, for the go-getters, it's like letting slip the handbrake