Copy rights

[ians]

I have got to a point where I need to get a company to CNC machine my products. My concern is how do I prevent the company using the drawing and mass producing the product themselves if I don't accept the price quoted?

[Justloadit]

Usually an NDA is all that is required.

[wynn]

Get an NDA but also for quotation purposes give them a drawing that has a few parts in different places on it, parts that will not affect the final price of the piece and that requires the exact same amount of work.
Then when you place your order you correct the position of the parts for 'no loss no fowl'

If they copy the plan for themselves they will have a lot of usless parts nobody wants or can use.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

Get an NDA but also for quotation purposes give them a drawing that has a few parts in different places on it, parts that will not affect the final price of the piece and that requires the exact same amount of work.
Then when you place your order you correct the position of the parts for 'no loss no fowl'

If they copy the plan for themselves they will have a lot of usless parts nobody wants or can use.

[adrianh]

I will never sign a NDA for anything unless I know the exact details of the content. I am extremely creative in my own right and I will never allow anybody to box my creativity in because they have an idea - whose to say I haven't had the same idea or even a better idea based on the sort of concept.

I think that any individual or company that signs a NDA without full knowledge of the contents is unbelievably stupid. How do they know that they are signing an NDA for original work, how do they know that the NDA doesn't contain common objects and common information.

You can try to get them to sign a ND but I bet they won't...for exactly the reasons I just stated.

[ians]

What I have done is given different parts of the object to different companies to quote. I am hoping this will take off and I can invest in my own CNC router and a small laser to do the labelling in the not tooo distant future. I don't want t outlay the money until I am sure it will take off. This weekend I promoted the product and made stock, everything was sold by this morning and I am getting more enquiries.

The bonus is my workshop is setup and already making the product (small scale), I just want to be prepared if it takes off.

[Justloadit]

I will never sign a NDA for anything unless I know the exact details of the content. I am extremely creative in my own right and I will never allow anybody to box my creativity in because they have an idea - whose to say I haven't had the same idea or even a better idea based on the sort of concept.

I think that any individual or company that signs a NDA without full knowledge of the contents is unbelievably stupid. How do they know that they are signing an NDA for original work, how do they know that the NDA doesn't contain common objects and common information.

You can try to get them to sign a ND but I bet they won't...for exactly the reasons I just stated.

In NDA's it states that anything of prior knowledge, after signing, is not protected by the NDA.

And yes there are still many original ideas, which only spark your creative side once you have been exposed to it. The NDA does have merit.

[adrianh]

Ok, so somebody comes to you and says that he has a great idea for a new speedpoint and and that you co7ld make millions if you build it for him. You think great because you've been thinking along similar lines. So you sign the \NDAxand lo and behold, he has come to you with exaactly the same idea as you have had rolling around your head for a year...what now?

Of course there are millions of original ideas and of course I would never have thought of them, but the fact still remains that I will never sign a NDA simply on the off chance that the idea may have already occured to me or may occur to me in the future. Maybe I pass up on loads of cash, that's fine by me but I will never lock myself into an idea unless I know the content up front.

[adrianh]

Ian, you will have trust people sooner or later and you know, people are able to copy absolutly anything no matter what you do. If a product sells well then somebody will copy it,itis a fact of life, NDA or no NDA. I cannot even begin to tell you how much reverse engineering goes on. I can create solid models of objects with a couple of photograps. I often buy opposition products simply to tske them apart and see what makes them tick. So lets say I spend R8K on an opposition product and figure out how it works, then I can develop my own and make some money. Nobody has a monopoly on designing and making stuff, ask Apple & Samsung.

There is no way on this earth that you will stop people from copying your product if it makes money, even if they have to buy 100 and rip them apart, it is simply the nature of the game. I don't know what kind of product you are in to but if you can do it on a laser and a cnc then so can anybody else. The trick is to find your niche and to lockyour client base into your product in some or 0ther way. The clients mist want to buy your product rather than any other similar product.

[ians]

One thing I have learnt from building stuff, it is just a matter of time that someone copies it and becomes your opposition. As Adrian mentioned a product I have been building for around 7 years has been copied, not exactly but very similar, the problem is that because this person has been marketing his product better than I have (credit to him where it is due), he has taken over and his sales have not doubled but gone 10 times more than mine. I noticed that there is another player in the market place. The good news is that my product has been developed over years of trial and error so they still have a way to go to catch up...anyway back to my other product.

This new product will be as simple as taking it and making a template, once you have the template you can take a picture you can download and bingo if you have a CNC, you can mass produce them.

What I am enjoying about it, is not the fact that I have a product and believe there is a market for this product. The challenge is trying to figue out a way to


1/ Price it right,
2/ Marketing it, at the moment there is only one shop which sells the product off the shelf and that is my product, you could import from China at a fraction of the price but you need to buy volume min 4000 units.
3/ Finance the project it takes off,

to mention a few of the challenges

The easy part is coming up with the ideas and making them, it getting them out there to the people and marketing them is the tricky part. I don't do the sitting at markets selling thing and having to go lick butt to get some chop to decide if he is going to actually take your product or not. I tried it the other day and I really feel for sales reps. they have kak job. I almost told the person at the shop where to fit his business, lucky I took a deep breathe and left

[ians]

Adrian with regards to trusting people, I am still trying to walk from all the knives in my back, it is going to take a while.

I was taught a lesson many years ago in the SADF, we had a buddy system when we went to the border. I watched as my "buddy" dropped me in the Crapper not behind my back, he got into trouble and lied to the person while I was standing right next to him, I took the punishment and did the time, but from that day on I realised that if that is what a buddy can do while you are standing next to him, just imagine what they do behind your back

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

I read this somewhere recently...

Beware the person patting you on the back...he may just be looking for the soft spot to bury the knife.

[adrianh]

That's not what I mean, forget about buddies and all that. What I mean is that you will need people to manufacture your product. All that an NDA does is either annoy people or get their antennae up to seeing possibilities to copy whatever you are doing. Ok, so lets think about it, you come to me with a NDA and I sign it. Nothing stops me from telling my buddy in JHB, OZ, hell even next door about your wonderful idea. The point that I am trying to make is that people WILL copy stuff, no matter what you do. The trick is to deal with people who have absolutely nothing to gain from copying your stuff. The average CNC or laser cutting business couldn't care less about what you do, yes, you may have a great product in a particular sector but that does not mean that the product has any meaning to them. They have machines to pay off, reputations to protect etc. People contact me on a daily basis to help them develop their products, yes of course I can copy them and sell them myself, but the reality is that I simply have no interest in selling. Yes we sell trains but they really sell themselves, I don't look for the market, the market knows me and comes to me. So, although there are many people who come to me with great products that I help to develop, I know full well that there is a hell of lot of work to get the product to market and that the designers reputation is critical to his product. Look, all that I am trying to say is that I do not believe that the average CNC or laser cutting company is going to steal your idea simply because they already have their hands full dealing with their own customers and issues.

I have to have a lot of stuff made, I have PC boards made, litho printing done, pad printer plates made, brass etching done...and and and, all those companies would laugh at me if I go to them with NDAs every time I want something done. I simply ask to have the parts made and that's it - the last thing you want to do is draw attention to it. If somebody asks you what it is for you simply say that you don't know, that the boss is replacing some part on some machine that he's been trying to get to work for the past 5 years...and that the boss is actually a stupid twat that doesn't know the first thing about machines (that will put them off looking at the part let alone copy it) - the best weapon that you have is your mouth, you'll be surprised how far you can get and how much you can find out by simply speaking a lot of rubbish.

[tec0]

I read this somewhere recently...

Beware the person patting you on the back...he may just be looking for the soft spot to bury the knife.

Funny you say that, because it is true...

[adrianh]

I will coin a proverb "No man is stabbed in the back with his eyes open"!