Bad attitude

[roryf]

I see a common problem that many employers have, they don't have a customised disciplinary code and procedure in place. Employers are responsible for administrative justice in their businesses, subject to the LRA. To do so effectively an employer should have a disciplinary code and procedure in place.subject to the LRA, some rules are so common that all employees are expected to be aware of them. It can only harm an employer not to have a proper disciplinary code and procedure in place.

Vanash is spot on.We have our disciplinary code stuck up in the Factory and Warehouse.Whenever we have hearings,the guys on the floor generally know the outcome before the hearing has started.It has taken some time but being fair and consistent has certainly paid off for us.It did mean getting rid of some good people.

[HR Solutions]

Some people that have been too long in a company become stagnant and complacent and do not change with the times. She certainly is out of line, but you need to ask yourself is she good at her job and can you perhaps help her or guide her or train her to your way of thinking. Perhaps the previous owner had a more hard arsed approach, which really doesn't work too well in todays business. I would definitely give her a warning and instruct her to change her attitude - she has got to fit in with your way of running a business and treating people. If she doesn't change or doesn't want to, then you know your answer.

[Entropy Group]

Seems I always have labour related issues...

I have this lady that has been working with the company for about 10 years and with us for about 5 (since we purchased the business) She is a bit of a hard-ass which you need to be in the motor industry, ordering guys around. I've had some complaints of bad attitude before but I attributed it to her no-nonsense approach, and compliments were more forthcoming than complaints. Often it would just be her wording to a customer for example: "Sir, you'll have to wait your turn for wheel alignment" instead of "Sir would you mind waiting a bit for wheel alignment?, I do have a few cars booked before you"

Yesterday things came to a head as I was doing some admin in the office I was called to the floor. I came to the reception counter to find her and a customer in a exchange of word in the realm of "F__k you" and "Jou ma se p__s" I tried to calm the situation, but her and this customer was like fire and petrol. While I was talking to the customer. My sales lady had phoned the police because the customer had threatened to give her "a m__rse klap" At one stage I told her to go into the office, so I can get the customer alone, but in the heat she was out there and back 2 seconds later.

How do I handle this? Do I give her a final written warning for being rude to a customer? Do I charge her at a formal hearing chaired by the RMI for i) Being rude to a customer, and ii) Not being competent for her position, and iii) Insubordination and suggest she either be dismissed or be demoted to admin lady? Do I give her a final written warning and force her to go for training in order to equip her better to handle such situations and communicate better to customers?

My concern here is that a lot of cowboy shoot-from-the-hip advice is rolling out here. Every disciplinary issue needs to be dealt with, yes! Gross misconduct as described is a dismissable offense, yes! You cannot, however, legally "decide" to dismiss someone, or give them a final written warning. Every disciplinary process needs to be substantively and procedurally correct. The elements I agreed to with a"yes" are substantive matters. However, procedural fairness demands a fair participative hearing (ideally with an independent chairperson, for your own protection) where the respondent has an opportunity to state a case, call witnesses, challenge allegations, be represented and have mitigating factors considered. Once an independent chairperson has found the respondent guilty, they would generally recommend an appropriate sanction, and then the decision to act accordingly can be made. Stay calm, control emotions and deal with disciplinary matters professionally, because the law protects you and the respondent alike.

[Entropy Group]

My concern here is that a lot of cowboy shoot-from-the-hip advice is rolling out here. Every disciplinary issue needs to be dealt with, yes! Gross misconduct as described is a dismissable offense, yes! You cannot, however, legally "decide" to dismiss someone, or give them a final written warning. Every disciplinary process needs to be substantively and procedurally correct. The elements I agreed to with a"yes" are substantive matters. However, procedural fairness demands a fair participative hearing (ideally with an independent chairperson, for your own protection) where the respondent has an opportunity to state a case, call witnesses, challenge allegations, be represented and have mitigating factors considered. Once an independent chairperson has found the respondent guilty, they would generally recommend an appropriate sanction, and then the decision to act accordingly can be made. Stay calm, control emotions and deal with disciplinary matters professionally, because the law protects you and the respondent alike.

[cindyreuben]

Hi

Do you have a disciplinary code in place? Are the employees aware of the disciplinary code? I agree absolutely with Entropy Group here - you must be able to prove both procedural and substantive fairness in any disciplinary process. Any knee jerk reaction will probably be the wrong one. If you have an HR department - escalate it to them.

Good luck!

[HR Solutions]

My concern here is that a lot of cowboy shoot-from-the-hip advice is rolling out here

No ..... it is everyones past experience !! There are a lot of business owners on this forum !! Take their advice it is NOT cowboys shooting from the hip !!!!!

[Entropy Group]

Ignore that bit if you don't like it. The rest of my advice is sound. You cannot decide to give someone a warning, a final written warning or dismissal, without fair procedure. HR 101.

[bones]

is it just me or do i see a lot of technical
advice that feels a bit pushed

granted not all of us are experts in labor
law but surly not every single transgression
needs a case manager and lawyer to
handle it?

if that is the case then business owners
must consider other means to protect them
selves may higher staff indirectly

[Justloadit]

LRA today is a minefield.
There is even a procedure to follow to hire someone.
Simply hiring a family member to fill in a position can land you in a position of incorrectly followed procedure, if a potential candidate feels that you have proceeded incorrectly.

THE LRA has changed so much, that it even includes small business. This is the reason that it is a difficult place to be in with staff.


I suggest that any process or procedure which may land in an area of a possible or dismissal should use the services of a professional to ensure that it does follow procedure. Unfortunately, these professionals cost money, and sometimes small business may attempt to go on their own and find themselves in deep financial position because of incorrect procedure.

Make no mistake, other countries, are probably more stringent in labour laws.

[bones]

LRA today is a minefield.
There is even a procedure to follow to hire someone.
Simply hiring a family member to fill in a position can land you in a position of incorrectly followed procedure, if a potential candidate feels that you have proceeded incorrectly.

THE LRA has changed so much, that it even includes small business. This is the reason that it is a difficult place to be in with staff.


I suggest that any process or procedure which may land in an area of a possible or dismissal should use the services of a professional to ensure that it does follow procedure. Unfortunately, these professionals cost money, and sometimes small business may attempt to go on their own and find themselves in deep financial position because of incorrect procedure.

Make no mistake, other countries, are probably more stringent in labour laws.

if i am ever big enough i will not bother
i will get a broker to handle the staff
i wouldnt bother with permanent staff

[Greig Whitton]

if i am ever big enough i will not bother
i will get a broker to handle the staff
i wouldnt bother with permanent staff

Doesn't matter whether they are permanent or not. The Labour Relations Act was recently amended to regulate non-permanent employees (including workers contracted via a labour broker).

[HR Solutions]

Doesn't matter whether they are permanent or not. The Labour Relations Act was recently amended to regulate non-permanent employees (including workers contracted via a labour broker).

Yes, but when a contract is over you cancel cancel the labour brokers staff. You can the r hire for a new "contract" period.

[Justloadit]

Yes, but when a contract is over you cancel cancel the labour brokers staff. You can the r hire for a new "contract" period.

Not so easy, if the contract period exceeds 3 months, then they are automatically permanent, and require that you then retrench, with all the things that go with it.

If you make the contract period less, you can extend the contract, but if the period of employment is greater than 3 months, then retrenchment.

Many loop holes have been closed by the LRA.

If you trade in a specific industry, you are obliged by law to join the specific department. Eg if you use copper and lead, then you are required to join the Metals Industry Benefit Fund - MIBFA, if it is automotive, then you need to join Motor industry benefit fund - MIGFA, and abide by their rules.Etc

[bones]

Doesn't matter whether they are permanent or not. The Labour Relations Act was recently amended to regulate non-permanent employees (including workers contracted via a labour broker).

i actually know the labor relations act well
enough and yes amendments where made a
few of them

outsourcing Labor is the way to go then i
would do that because in the end labor
relations and disputes are no longer a
problem so i would think twice before
cornering people to much i would work
on a month to month base and get new
people in every month

it will be a pain in he behind but what
else cane you do

[Entropy Group]

"seek professional help with anything and everything never take advice from me" your most valuable statement yet.