Holding on to company property

[joefromcapetown]

I have recently resigned. The company still has to reimburse me around ZAR3000 for expenses. I have not yet received my final salary, nor a reference letter. I am allowed to hold on to company laptop and mobile until I get paid?

[Cappy]

no really sure about the legal implications.
At 1 of my previous companies someone did the same and the company made a case of theft at the police station. Don't know if the guy returned it or the company dropped the case because I have left the company at more or less the same point.

[HR Solutions]

I have recently resigned. The company still has to reimburse me around ZAR3000 for expenses. I have not yet received my final salary, nor a reference letter. I am allowed to hold on to company laptop and mobile until I get paid?

I would not recommend that - as an employer myself, if someone did that to me I would have them locked up before the weekend.

[joefromcapetown]

So what recourse is there?

[Cappy]

CCMA or Department of Labour is your best bet I would say

[Basment Dweller]

I am allowed to hold on to company laptop and mobile until I get paid?

Possession is nine-tenths of the law right? I was involved in a failed start up some years ago and was owed over R100 000. When the company folded I kept the laptop, cellphone, pc, marketing materials, roll up banners, stationery etc...pretty much everything that was in my possession. Since I new my ex partner had no funds to persue legal recourse, I wrote off the 100k and kept what was left and moved on to other projects. School fees.

I would say yes, hold on to that stuff and only release it until they cough up what's owed.

[HR Solutions]

BD - I think your situation was different - you started something with someone. Joe above worked for someone. If the company lays a theft charge against him it might not go to court, but that charge will stay on your record. You have to ask yourself do you want that ?

[Basment Dweller]

BD - I think your situation was different - you started something with someone. Joe above worked for someone. If the company lays a theft charge against him it might not go to court, but that charge will stay on your record. You have to ask yourself do you want that ?

For 3 grand probably not, OP needs to judge based on the situation.

I still wouldn't volunteer returning anything unless they asked for it back and threatened opening a case of theft and lawyer up.

[HR Solutions]

There are two ways to do crim checks. The one way only picks up actual convictions - the other way will pick up EVERYTHING - including any charge that was laid against you, even if it did not go to court or was dismissed or dropped etc. It stays on the record. A lot of people are unaware of this.

[Justloadit]

Unfortunately the one case has nothing to do with the other as far as the law is concerned.
The company probably will lay charges of theft against the employee, as this is very simple to do, and it merely means going to the police station and making a charge.

My suggestion, and I am no lawyer, but I would write a letter/email in which I would state to the company, that upon receipt of your outstanding monies, and you name each and every item that they owe you, you will return the equipment.
Depending on their answer, it may require that you return the equipment if requested to do so. What it does do, is that it gets the company to acknowledge or reject that they have not or will not pay you. You can then use this as evidence in the case they never pay you.

[BusFact]

BD - I think your situation was different - you started something with someone. Joe above worked for someone. If the company lays a theft charge against him it might not go to court, but that charge will stay on your record. You have to ask yourself do you want that ?

Can't see much difference from a legal perspective. The difference seems to be one of means with which to pursue the case.

I'd say they would be on shaky legal ground, claiming theft (a criminal charge) of an item they gave him. Its not even theft under false pretences.

What they may have is a civil case where they could sue him for the return of the laptop.

But as has been alluded to above, I think everyone concerned would be better off not bringing the legal community into this argument.

I have recently resigned. The company still has to reimburse me around ZAR3000 for expenses. I have not yet received my final salary, nor a reference letter. I am allowed to hold on to company laptop and mobile until I get paid?

Are you worried they won't be paying you? Have they requested those items?

If both parties want their stuff before they give what is due to the other, then you have a stalemate, and the lawyers will get richer.

I'd say return the laptop and the mobile, if they have asked for them. Mainly because the company is probably within its rights to take those back whenever it wants. You on the other hand are only entitled to your pay at the end of the month.
If they do not refund you or don't pay your salary in full, including reimbursements, only then would I suggest you react by going to the CCMA.

You really do have the stronger bargaining position as your legal recourse is free (CCMA). I don't see the point of causing animosity because you think they might not pay you. For all you know they will.

[HR Solutions]

I'd say they would be on shaky legal ground, claiming theft

If a company owns something and someone else has it and does/will not return it, it is theft.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

You will not be able to go to the CCMA as they do not have jurisdiction for statutory money (salary, leave etc.)
They only get that authority when there is also a dismissal issue before them, then they may deal with both issues.
That leaves the department of labour - good luck with that.

Of course you may be pre-empting the non-payment (unless they have a track record).
It seems a high risk to burn a bridge, maybe get dragged into a nasty scrap and that for R3000. As much as it is your money, and every cent counts, the risk versus return seems poor, if there is no guarantee of non payment.

[AndyD]

Did they specifically request the laptop is returned?

If theres items on the laptop that belong to you such as images, documents, scans of personal documents such as ID book, bank statements, music you've purchased or installed programs etc then I'd say you'd at least have a valid claim to keep the laptop in your posession until your personal items are removed from it. I'm sure that could take a while, especially if you're needing the R3K in outstanding salary to pay a computer guy to do it for you.

[BusFact]

If a company owns something and someone else has it and does/will not return it, it is theft.

Sorry, going a bit off topic here, but its much murkier than that I believe.
1) It has to have been unlawfully appropriated. In this case it wasn't, it was given to him.
2) There must be intent to deprive the owner of the property permanently. Again not the case here.

A good example is the debt I may owe you. The money belongs to you, but your service is in dispute so I decide I will not pay it back. Not theft. Civil matter.

Or

A bank repossesses my car when I default through a civil process, not criminal theft, even though they are still the owner (although I agree the ownership term here is used loosely).