Metals Industry strike - my take

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  • OdetteBK
    New Member
    • Jan 2014
    • 8

    #106
    Originally posted by tec0
    Consider that most of these mega corporations have been functioning in this country for more than 20 years. (much more)

    How many BILLIONS have they made over the years? I mean if it is not profitable why continue?

    Also consider that minimum income in first world countries VS South Africa. If these companies are to let’s say start a mine in Australia then they will have to go by the Australian law of minimum income right?

    So will that cost them more money or less money to do? Considering Australia has a healthy economy and there minimum income is MUCH higher than our own...

    Truth is our rand is weak and our labour is cheaper than anywhere else in the world.

    YES if you earn Rands and pay people in Rands it is difficult. BUT if you get paid in first world money and convert that to our money it is almost nothing. Why because the rand has no real value.
    tec0:
    1. I know of a "mega corporation" that USED to function for more than 20 years but between BEE constraints, government taking months to pay accounts & strikes... they have closed doors.
    2. Compare apples with apples... in other words if you want to compare South African minimum wage with Australian minimum wage, then also consider the cost of living in South Africa compared to Australia. We do not get paid in "first world money", we are paid in rands and we pay in rands.

    As Justloadit & adrianh said it so eloquently: workers work for the company, the company works for investors who invested their own hard earned money.

    Sure a union is there to "protect" the interests of the worker. But when they hold the employer to ransom to the point that small struggling businesses are forced to shut down, where are the unions when the workers are left without work? Besides who wants to be forced to retain employees who willfully destroy company property & violently intimidate other employees?Unfortunately the only suggestion I can come up with at this stage (which no doubt has been thought about it) is that we need to find a way/happy medium where unions may continue ensuring employees are not exploited, without having absolute power to the detriment of the employer and in effect the demise of our economic future.

    Comment

    • adrianh
      Diamond Member

      • Mar 2010
      • 6328

      #107
      I think that the union leadership are the ones to blame. They created a deep rift between management and workers and although they claim to want to bring the two together their aim is to keep them apart. The reason I say this is simply because labour unrest is a direct result of union meddling. When last did you hear of a company strike where only non-unionised workers were involved. When last did you hear of non-unionised workers beating unionised workers when the go to work. When last did you hear of a union approve of anything that a company does or work together with the company to provide a better service or overcome a hurdle.

      The problem is that union bosses see themselves as military leaders and their members as their soldiers to do with as they see fit. In military terms the union bosses are low ranking non-commissioned officers who hold their own soldiers hostage by means of their rhetoric and their thugs. They are able to play in the big leagues, not because of their abilities but because they have a large army at their disposal. Please keep in mind that the vast majority of those soldiers simply wish to be left alone but they are unable to because they have been coerced into joining the party for the "greater good" ...Think about Germany and the second world war, the Nazi's stayed in power not because people loved them, hell no, they stayed in power because they used the SS to intimidate and exterminate anybody who tried to oppose them.

      How do you fix the problem...one needs to find a way to remove the wedge that union bosses hold between management and workers. Increasing worker salaries will not do it because the fundamental problem lies in the wedge and the wedge will simply think up other reasons to stay put. Maybe the answer lies in educating young people to understand that they are responsible for their own wellbeing and that union bosses do not represent them but rather use them as pawns to be shifted around their own little empires.

      Comment

      • Dave S
        Gold Member

        • Jun 2007
        • 733

        #108
        Hi Everyone, I've been away from the forum for a while, and it looks like I've chosen a duzy of a topic to herald my return... so diving right in...

        The striking is as Dave A says, "A power struggle", and it is politically-powered. It has little, if anything to do with the workers' salaries, contentment, etc. Quite frankly, the Unions don't give a s**t about their members, they seem more intent on overthrowing Governments and creating their own "world order" for the benefit of their own greed. But they do realise that they need the "workers" to fuel their efforts, so they will use propaganda and racism to get the workers on their side, under the pretext that they are doing it for the workers. The fact that the workers they represent are 99.0% poverty-stricken, sub-educates is no coincidence???

        We are all aware of our history, and most of us are not proud of it, but we've had a 20-year "democracy?" in which to start putting things right, but instead of working to achieve, we have been working to destroy. We have been led by a clown-government that has allowed unions to grow, and most of those unions have grown under the ANC banner. Now we have a situation where these Unions have become a SA-Mafia (for want of a better description). It seems that we now have too many Unions, with each Union deciding which other Union they are going to support and thereby increasing their masses, so now you have workers striking from unrelated industries, mine-workers strike for a steel-workers cause and so on, ad-infinitum... What happens when the masses become too large, violence, intimidation, hate, etc. Entire cities can be shut down by this, and entire economies will collapse (Zimbabwe, Mozambique, almost the entire African continent... Indonesia, and some others outside Africa).

        So how do we fix it? Assuming, of course, that it can be fixed... My simple answer, I don't know, it's not just a financial, political, racial, or even a personal issue, it's all of these and even more. The best minds of our country need to get around the same table with the sole purpose of proposing fixes in only their respective fields, The Financiers need to present the best solutions for financial stability, the Politicians must present their best solutions for political stability, even the best Criminal minds must present the best solutions to crime free society. Black, White, Rich, Poor, Young, and Old must be represented at this table. It is past time for all South Africans to take responsibility and do what we said we could back in 1986, and started in 1994. And in all of this, discriminatory policies, must be completely scrapped, companies must be allowed to hire whom they want, when they want, with a few parameters to protect against slavery, abuse, discrimination, etc. The idea is to create a country where people want to be, want to work, and are proud to be South African again.

        PS. Having now read what I have just typed, it seems to be written as if by a child with Utopian sentiments, but maybe that is exactly what we need, the return to the re-birth of South Africa? To be children once again?
        Today Defines Tomorrow
        Errare Humanum Est Remitto Divinus

        Comment

        • roryf
          Bronze Member

          • May 2010
          • 138

          #109
          I was in an ongoing wage negotiation yesterday with my lawyer and obviously the Union guys.We are not prepared to give into their demands but have proposed other ways on getting the staff members to take home more money.We offered a 9% ATB increase which I feel is fair.We offered two other ways of increasing the take home pay:

          1.Bonuses linked to staff productivity
          2.Fluctuating increase/decrease percentage linked to company performance

          The Shop Stewards immediately rejected these proposals saying that it could not work.I am on a commission based package for running the company I work for and the harder I work the more I get out,the more the shareholder get out.Both the lawyer and I tried to explain and they would not budge.South Africans (All colours) need to change their mind sets/attitudes and work together.I suspect that most of our unionised staff will be resigning from the union in the next month or two based on the Shop Stewards performance and attitude.

          Comment

          • tec0
            Diamond Member

            • Jun 2009
            • 4624

            #110
            Firstly no person accept the unions can speak on the unions behalf and it is the union’s job to make sure that all laws are followed to the letter. All their actions must be by the letter of the law also their actions. If those that act illegally are not being held accountable then all South Africans must ask why as no one is suppose to be above the law.

            Secondly Labour outsourcing created its own problems. Firstly a short term or temporary employee cannot get loans for cars, homes and find it difficult to maintain a medical aid and to establish a foundation and realistically things like investment and Pension is disappearing. I ask you HOW CAN IT BENEFIT THE COUNTRY IF OUR PEOPLE CANNOT INVEST LONG TERM? Without investment a country is a fish out of water. Without long term investment the poor especially must depend on government for their Pension because they never where able to invest. Now the tax payer must pay more and more. How can this be beneficial to all parties involved?

            But our biggest problem is POWER and the reality is there millions upon millions of Rand that is outstanding from the municipalities. Now if we don’t pay we get cut off. This is normal for us. But why are the municipalities not paying their bill to Eskom? Obviously Eskom is also a business and need to pay for equipment, fuel and their employees and if they don’t get their money how must they function?

            So it s clear that our Government have to ask the municipalities “WHERE IS THE MONEY” “WHY ARE SO MUCH OUTSTANDING” “WHY ARE YOU NOT PAYING YOUR BILLS” START INVESTIGATIONS AND SOLVE THE MANY PROBLEMS THEY HAVE” Because if they don’t the infrastructures will fail and when that happens well then it is game over and we will no longer have industry, commercial and private sectors all will be gone as if by magic.

            The people must address the government and DEMAND ACTION against our many problems and there sources. If they don’t its GAME OVER.
            peace is a state of mind
            Disclaimer: everything written by me can be considered as fictional.

            Comment

            • Houses4Rent
              Gold Member

              • Mar 2014
              • 803

              #111
              Maybe this thread should be send to Number One...
              Houses4Rent
              "We treat your investment as we treat our own"
              marc@houses4rent.co.za www.houses4rent.co.za
              083-3115551
              Global Residential Property Investor / Specialized Letting Agent & Property Manager

              Comment

              • jufonss
                New Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 6

                #112
                I got this information from one of my customer in SA.i'm the chinese guy.i wish this strike will pass soon.I just know,if the boat want go faster and steady,we need much peace.And i have been to SA by last year of May,i like there and love the peoples there.Wishes everything goes well.God bless you!!!

                Comment

                • Citizen X
                  Diamond Member

                  • Sep 2011
                  • 3411

                  #113
                  Off the cuff..Suffice to say it, but this is a very contentious issue. If one asks a simple question: What drives the economy? And one attempts to answer it, one cannot leave human capital out of the equation.
                  To compound matters, we have the Constitutional right to strike as well as the right to form groups. The legislatures answer to the problem of strikes is the Labour Relations Amendment Bill which will limit the right to strike by making it compulsory for arbitration to take place first[among other things].



                  We’ve seen the tenaciousness of workers themselves. We’ve witnessed how workers essentially fired their unions for the lack of better expression.



                  In a well functioning economy. One wouldn’t find these problems as there would be a reasonable supply of employment. If so, the worker simply says, ‘I don’t want to work for employer A because of the low wages, and then moves on to employer B who will pay the higher wage. This is where the problem lies, we don’t have this situation in SA.



                  A solution, I don’t see one being implemented effectively and efficiently.
                  The ultimate problem: Forcing human capital to work happily for an amount the employer determines
                  “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
                  Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
                  Click here
                  "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

                  Comment

                  • IanF
                    Moderator

                    • Dec 2007
                    • 2680

                    #114
                    Originally posted by tec0
                    Firstly no person accept the unions can speak on the unions behalf and it is the union’s job to make sure that all laws are followed to the letter. All their actions must be by the letter of the law also their actions. If those that act illegally are not being held accountable then all South Africans must ask why as no one is suppose to be above the law.
                    Hi Teco can you explain the bit in red why can't the unions speak for the unions?
                    Why aren't the people break law during the strikes be arrested and convicted?
                    As for Labour Brokers the only way I see this changing is when the employer has the same right to fire an employee as the employee has to resign without due cause.

                    Labour Broking is here as the laws for firing an employee are very onerous for the employer.
                    Only stress when you can change the outcome!

                    Comment

                    • Greig Whitton
                      Silver Member

                      • Mar 2014
                      • 338

                      #115
                      Originally posted by IanF
                      Labour Broking is here as the laws for firing an employee are very onerous for the employer.
                      To be honest, I really don't think that the legal requirements for dismissing an employee are that onerous. Obviously it is a lot easier for an employee to quit their job than it is for an employer to fire someone, but I don't agree that requiring employers to have a fair reason for dismissing someone and giving their employees an opportunity to respond to those reasons is that unreasonable.

                      Furthermore, there are some employers that have no interest in complying with any labour regulations - even those that are reasonable and fair - and have used labour brokerers to exploit their workers without breaking the law. Which is why the changes to the Labour Relations Act will make these practices illegal.

                      Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

                      Comment

                      • IanF
                        Moderator

                        • Dec 2007
                        • 2680

                        #116
                        Originally posted by Greig Whitton
                        To be honest, I really don't think that the legal requirements for dismissing an employee are that onerous. Obviously it is a lot easier for an employee to quit their job than it is for an employer to fire someone, but I don't agree that requiring employers to have a fair reason for dismissing someone and giving their employees an opportunity to respond to those reasons is that unreasonable.

                        Furthermore, there are some employers that have no interest in complying with any labour regulations - even those that are reasonable and fair - and have used labour brokerers to exploit their workers without breaking the law. Which is why the changes to the Labour Relations Act will make these practices illegal.
                        Just read on the forum how sometimes it is worthwhile not getting a lawyer and paying out 3 months at CCMA now instead of running your business efficiently you have to worry about this.
                        BTW I gave an employee an extra R500 this month as she really goes above and beyond she is so chuffed. I prefer to do positive things like this instead of hearings warnings etc.
                        Only stress when you can change the outcome!

                        Comment

                        • Slow Blow
                          Full Member

                          • Feb 2014
                          • 55

                          #117
                          Originally posted by IanF
                          Just read on the forum how sometimes it is worthwhile not getting a lawyer and paying out 3 months at CCMA now instead of running your business efficiently you have to worry about this.
                          BTW I gave an employee an extra R500 this month as she really goes above and beyond she is so chuffed. I prefer to do positive things like this instead of hearings warnings etc.
                          Fuck em
                          Apparently there is nothing that cannot happen today.

                          Comment

                          • AndyD
                            Diamond Member

                            • Jan 2010
                            • 4946

                            #118
                            Originally posted by Slow Blow
                            Fuck em
                            Lol, who?
                            _______________________________________________

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                            Comment

                            • tec0
                              Diamond Member

                              • Jun 2009
                              • 4624

                              #119
                              Originally posted by IanF
                              Hi Teco can you explain the bit in red why can't the unions speak for the unions?
                              Why aren't the people break law during the strikes be arrested and convicted?
                              As for Labour Brokers the only way I see this changing is when the employer has the same right to fire an employee as the employee has to resign without due cause.

                              Labour Broking is here as the laws for firing an employee are very onerous for the employer.
                              Originally posted by tec0
                              Firstly no person accept the unions can speak on the unions behalf
                              well obviously one cannot speak on behalf of someone else. One can speculate but that is all it would be "speculation"
                              peace is a state of mind
                              Disclaimer: everything written by me can be considered as fictional.

                              Comment

                              • polpak
                                Full Member
                                • Jun 2013
                                • 33

                                #120
                                Consider changing wage incomes so x% is paid as regular wages and y% as shares which pay dividends, with conditions preventing them from being sold for several years ?

                                May encourage mutual consideration of the longer term welfare of employing company.


                                BTW such requires an income which at least meets basic needs, as well as cultivating minds, not hunter-gatherer minds....

                                Comment

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