Prostituting one's licence.

[Derlyn]

So, I am being approached regularly now to do inspections and issue coc's for pv systems, inverters and batteries that have been installed by unregistered installers.

Up to now I have refused, but I'm having second thoughts. I refuse, but the next man obliges and 1,2,3 the client has their coc.

What does one do ?

We ain't gonna get rid of the unregistered installers. How ?
They are not DOL registered. They are not members of any organizations. It's a free for all.

I've now decided to do inspections on condition that my inspection fee is paid upfront and then only issue a coc after all defects found have been rectified by the installer to my satisfaction.
I know it will be prostituting my licence, but at least the installation will be brought up to standard.

What other options do we, as registered contractors have ?

Talk to me.

[Dylboy]

I am well have been in the same boat, I see it as supporting the Cowboys. However, I do my inspections and tests and there is a 100% chance things need changing.

I now see it as doing a CoC for something that was done years ago, just a regular CoC for example a sale of a house.

It's tough and I know that when I refuse they get someone else who just signs it and takes his money.

It's tough, you know you supporting a cowboy but then when you done it's safe.

For me now it's make sure it's safe for sign off and at the end the client is satisfied and about 90% of the time they call me and refer me not the original installer.

Tough but do what makes you sleep at night.

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

[Isetech]

By the way the municipality registration starts gaining momentum, and they start disconnecting and fining people, the demand for registered engineers and licence sparkies is going rocket out of proportion.

People are going to be desperate like stage 6 load shedding, then it time for engineers and sparkies to shine, we are going to see hourly rates exceeding R1200 per hour.

Watch carefully, it coming.

[GCE]

So, I am being approached regularly now to do inspections and issue coc's for pv systems, inverters and batteries that have been installed by unregistered installers.

Up to now I have refused, but I'm having second thoughts. I refuse, but the next man obliges and 1,2,3 the client has their coc.

What does one do ?

We ain't gonna get rid of the unregistered installers. How ?
They are not DOL registered. They are not members of any organizations. It's a free for all.

I've now decided to do inspections on condition that my inspection fee is paid upfront and then only issue a coc after all defects found have been rectified by the installer to my satisfaction.
I know it will be prostituting my licence, but at least the installation will be brought up to standard.

What other options do we, as registered contractors have ?

Talk to me.

We will not do it .

You sign the coc and if something goes wrong it is only your name on a legal paper that is responsible according to the house owner , insurance company and municipality - There will be no other piece of legal paper holding anybody else responsible

Signing off on the system would also mean that you need to check string voltage , amperage and wattage against the specification of the panels and inverter , battery charging currents etc ,
If you going to sign make sure you are covering the hours needed to do the calculations , negotiate with the municipality and submit registration, explain metering fees and tariffs to the owner and that your contractors all risk policy will handle any blow back

The risks are to big and the profits to small

[Dylboy]

Anyone know of an engineer or someone that can teach me / show me how the tarif system works and the registration process and the nuances with it in Gauteng, more so I guess Randburg/ Bryanston area where I can physically meet.

This register thing scares me so so much and I don't know how to even start.

If there is someone I can meet please share with me.

In my apprenticeship years we never did applications and I was never taught about billing such as this TOU and all that. I don't even know what to tell the clients.

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

[Derlyn]

We will not do it .

You sign the coc and if something goes wrong it is only your name on a legal paper that is responsible according to the house owner , insurance company and municipality - There will be no other piece of legal paper holding anybody else responsible

Signing off on the system would also mean that you need to check string voltage , amperage and wattage against the specification of the panels and inverter , battery charging currents etc ,
If you going to sign make sure you are covering the hours needed to do the calculations , negotiate with the municipality and submit registration, explain metering fees and tariffs to the owner and that your contractors all risk policy will handle any blow back

The risks are to big and the profits to small

Thank you GCE. This is what I needed when I said " talk to me ".
I will follow your advice and carry on as in the past and keep on refusing.
Rather let someone else do it.

Just one question. The additional test report for SSEG as supplied by ECA from what I see, is for Photovoltaic Installations.
My question is ........ Is an inverter with a battery, excluding solar panels, classified as a photovoltaic installation ?

[GCE]

Just one question. The additional test report for SSEG as supplied by ECA from what I see, is for Photovoltaic Installations.
My question is ........ Is an inverter with a battery, excluding solar panels, classified as a photovoltaic installation ?

It would not be a PV installation

We do the test report the same way we would a generator

[Isetech]

This is how it would work if we lived in the Truman bubble.

The engineer designs the backup/solar project, the application forms for registration is submitted to the municipality, the equipment is installed by the trained, skilled installer, under the general supervision of the IE or MIE, who will carry out a test report which includes visual inspection and carry out the required tests to verify the installation is reasonably safe at which time the engineer could be present if they dont trust the IE or MIE is competent enough to do his job , once the COC is issued, the engineer can then walk around the site and verify the installation is in fact as per the design criteria and review the CO to see that it is completed correctly and sign off the project and submit the documents for the registration.

Show me one of the hundreds of thousands in installations already completed installation in SA that has complied with all these steps (maybe commercial, but domestic mmm) you just have to look at social media and companies promoting vetted and approved approved installers to see that few even comply with manufacturers recommendations, never mind the SANS regualations

The way I see it, that

[Isetech]

By the way installing lithium batteries in occupied areas cant be that bad other wise the insurance companies would be issuing clauses to policies for properties with solar and batteries.

The reason it hast already happened is simple, nobody actually has the knowledge or enough experience to stand up create a basic guideline ( which you could make and absolute fortune selling to everyone).

Unless you can find someone who can submit a clear set of basic guidelines which includes, all the different lithium batteries, the size size of battery allowed in various locations, and requirements or classifications for that area, I wish people would stop spreading bullshyte on social media and in groups.

[GCE]

By the way installing lithium batteries in occupied areas cant be that bad other wise the insurance companies would be issuing clauses to policies for properties with solar and batteries.

The reason it hast already happened is simple, nobody actually has the knowledge or enough experience to stand up create a basic guideline ( which you could make and absolute fortune selling to everyone).

Unless you can find someone who can submit a clear set of basic guidelines which includes, all the different lithium batteries, the size size of battery allowed in various locations, and requirements or classifications for that area, I wish people would stop spreading bullshyte on social media and in groups.

Agreed - The batteries being brought into the country by reputable importers are all LiFePO4 which have a very low to no fire risk

[Isetech]

The lithium batteries we install are IP 65, the cells are sealed in a metal enclosure which must have some form of fire rating, which would suffocate a fire before it could even start. (been trying to get the fire rating from Sunsynk, IP 65 5.1 kwh, let me know if you have any joy)

It has a built in BMS with all the safety features to prevent over charging, overheating and all the safety stuff.

Sunsynk web page has a lithium battery installed under a stairwell in a cupboard, so it cant be that dangerous, so why all the fuss in SA? Educate us, we are all waiting.

https://www.sunsynk.org/

I am yet to hear of a court case where the power that be have tried to challenge people who install batteries in cupboard and occupied areas.

Worse case scenario, the terminals might burn due to loose connections if the installer doesn't crimp the lugs properly, but that would happen if the battery was installed in the garage, house or office.

I would say this whole lithium battery frenzy is a scam, a way for installers to rip a bigger whole in the customer bank account due to all the extra cost involved in running cables all the way to a garage and back, creating another challenge, volt drop. If you look at most inverter installations the installer use cables rated for the inverter, for example a 5 kw with 2.5 mm and maybe a 4 mm wire. If you start looking at the distance from the meter box to the main DB, then all the way out to the garage AC bypass DB and all the way back to the main DB. Start derating the wire in the hot roof space and under the ground in conduits. The engineers (if they know what they are doing) are going to be laughing at the installers when they try register the systems. Who is going to lose a lot of money again, yip you guessed right, the public.

You think there is a problem with shady installer now, wait till the registration process start gaining momentum, you gonna see them dropping like flies, disappearing into never never land. not just the shady ones.

You know what else is coming, summer baby, lets see how these badly installed units handle the 35-40 degree temperatures

Agreed - The batteries being brought into the country by reputable importers are all LiFePO4 which have a very low to no fire risk

[GCE]

I am busy with the Lithium conversation and trying to get practice notes put out but there is division

I have spoken to importers and downloaded MSDS certificates along with articles

LiFePO4 batteries on all accounts are stable and even if punctured cannot catch fire - We have mandated the guys to talk to manufacturers

Have attached a MSDS cert and even under fire fighting measures it is a standard CO2 fire extinguisher vs the noise on social media about special fire extinguishes

The guys create panic through google articles instead of using cold facts , data sheets .
Most fire articles that have been shoved down me throat durng the discussions are worded as " may be the result of battery " is being investigated and " could be " - Not one has said the batteries started the fire

Pasted sections from the MSDS and most I have downloaded say the same thing



Fire Fighting Measures
Extinguishing Media : A carbon dioxide (CO2); Dry chemical powder (DCP)
Specific Hazards : Cells or batteries that are damaged, opened or
exposed to excessive heat/fire may flame or leak
potentially hazardous organic vapours.

Personal Precautions : Under a normal condition of use, a battery is
hermetically sealed and not hazardous. Leakage or
release of hazardous materials contained within a
battery would be possible under abusive conditions

Stability : The batteries are stable under normal operation and
storage conditions.
Conditions to avoid : Short-circuiting, disassembling, heating over the
operation temperature range of the product.

[Isetech]

Apparently the boating industry (large luxury yachts) have done extensive research into lithium battery safety on the vessels.

[Isetech]

Yet people feel it safe to install these batteries in a garage below 1.2 m in font or side of where the vehicle is parked, with no ceiling which will create a much hotter environment for the batteries.

Not forgetting the excessive volt drop running the under rated cables being installed through extremely hot roof spaces and down into conduit buried in the ground, which also requires derating.

You can see there has been a lot of thought put into this industry designs

Do you still think its a waste of time using engineers to design and approve solar installations ?





or thermal abuse. Warning: the cells/batteries should not be punctured, or incinerated, crushed, immersed in water, over-charged, or exposed to a temperature above the declared operation temperature range of the cell or battery Should the cell/battery be subjected to a different Process or use, such as dismantling for recycling, or destruction, a different safety data sheet would be required. Please contact Freedom Won