SANS codes.

[Jacques#1]

Annex L.1
(normative where surge protection
is required or installed (see 6.7.6))

It may be installed, and if it is installed, it shall be at least in the main db....

Thanks Jacques, I see your point.

I was more thinking as a requirement in order to validate a coc.

Is it a requirement then? Should the issuer of the coc install it if it is not present?

Well, as I see it, it is a requirement, and I install it before I sign the house off. I actually carry stock of CBI L+N 5kA SPD's (cheaper than 2 x single pole units), and 6mm gp wire. If no-one can without a shadow of a doubt tell me that it is not required I'll rather not take the chance, and see it as the safer option? Maybe someone will read this and comment with a more definitive answer?

[123]

1.3 Where this part of SANS 10142 is not applicable
This part of SANS 10142 does not apply to
a) electric traction equipment,
b) automotive electrical equipment (excluding the caravan part of a
roving vehicle),
c) electrical installations on board ships,
d) electrical installations in aircraft,
e) electrical installations for underground and open cast mining
operations,
f) telecommunication, television and radio circuits (excluding the power
supply to such equipment),
g) lightning protection of buildings and structures, and
NOTE The installation of surge protection is not compulsory, but where it is
installed, compliance with annex L is required. Amdt 1; amdt 5
h) extra low voltage control circuits between different parts of machinery
or system components, forming a unit, that are separately installed
and derived from an independent source or an isolating transformer
(excluding ELV lighting circuits). Amdt 5

I think this should clear it up?

Note of interest: television circuits? does this include the antenna? is the antenna part of the signal circuit?

[Jacques#1]

[I]1.3 Where this part of SANS 10142 is not applicable

[B][U]NOTE The installation of surge protection is not compulsory, but where it is
I think this should clear it up?
Note of interest: television circuits? does this include the antenna? is the antenna part of the signal circuit?

I yield, it looks like that specific part may indicate that SPD's is not required. Now, try explaining this to an inspector (they don't exist in the old format anymore....now AIA's).......I've had an hour long debate with two inspectors about the definition of space heating.....and references to underfloor heating a few pages further.

[AndyD]

1. As far as I know you can do an industrial jobbie on the main switch.......take a 1.5mm stainless steel rope, ferrule it around the switch, make the bottom end lower than 2.2m, loop it and ferrule it. Add a sign on the rope (switch off this main switch in the event.......), and one on the DB.

I think you would need to be careful with loose or hanging type of arrangement that it would not present a 'contact' hazard if the door is opened.

2. Db in the cupboard, put a lable on the cupboard door stating the DB is inside the cupboard, and must remain un-obstructed. Take a photo of the lable and you are set. (We all know the home owner pulls that ugly lable off before you turned on you ignition)..

This has always been a problem area especially with domestic installations. Knowing damn well that any labels are destined for removal and that the cupboard will be cluttered in a week means that in the event of an accident, a certain amount of liability would be on the shoulders of the issuer of the certificate surely. Maybe a firm rule of no DB's in cupboards would be better.

3. The TV guy should put an earth wire, some does others don't. They should also adhere to any standards related to their industry, regardless of its origin.

Apart from the earthing requirement, the TV dish or antennas would not fall under the electrical COC. The earthing should be removed from the electrical regs in my view and made a part of the TV installation regulations. I think they included it in the electrical regs as a cop-out rather than trying to enforce good TV installation practices.

Annex L.1
(normative where surge protection
is required or installed (see 6.7.6))

It may be installed, and if it is installed, it shall be at least in the main db....

Thanks Jacques, I see your point.

I was more thinking as a requirement in order to validate a coc.

Is it a requirement then? Should the issuer of the coc install it if it is not present?

If I remember rightly, in one of the amendments surge protection was made compulsory then in a later amendment there was some backtracking and it was made discretionary. In some areas of Cape Town it might not be necessary, on the very few new installations we get involved in we include it in quotations but if price is an issue it's often the first thing to go.

[Dave A]

If I remember rightly, in one of the amendments surge protection was made compulsory then in a later amendment there was some backtracking and it was made discretionary.

That's how I remember it too.

Which makes a wiki based guide that highlights the "debatable" points and code changes a good idea, come to think of it. Then with each update we can edit the relevant page if affected and update the "changes" page.

[murdock]

this is what i like to see...tell us more about the space heater dicussion.

i will make a point of updating my sans book and get more involved in the discussion.

surge protection was engforce a couple of years ago then they scrapped it and now only if it is a high risk area it is required.

i agree with the DB in the cupboard but being a contractor and inspector...i have been involved in too many projects where customers have requested the cupboard be installed over the DB...most times you cant even ge tthe cover off...but to move it can be a huge job.

All DBs should be installed in the passage behind the passage door...it is the most practical place...nothing gets put in front of it...it is easily accessable from most places in the house...and by just closing the door you have full access to it...and if you mount it at a reasonable height you can put a picture over it...which can be removed to do work.

tv aerial earth should be installed by the aerial installer...but then the earth bar should be accessable in the roof...their argument is they cannot open the DB because they are not qualified to do so...and i agree...an earth bar in the roof could be of great assistance to everyone for geyser bonding...tv aerials...etc.

[123]

Guys, let's put this one to bed, and kiss it goodnight. SPD's is NOT required for a valid CoC.

[123]

Apologies, but the general interpretation of SANS 10142 1.3 (f) is: Excluding TV circuits... (pse read).

Since "Television Circuits" , which most definitely includes the antenna, is excluded from "this part of sans 10142 -1" ... it is a no brainer. sans 10142 does not apply.

Or am I wrong?

[AndyD]

tv aerial earth should be installed by the aerial installer...but then the earth bar should be accessable in the roof...their argument is they cannot open the DB because they are not qualified to do so...and i agree...an earth bar in the roof could be of great assistance to everyone for geyser bonding...tv aerials...etc.

Why can't they install a separate earth spike for the antenna?

Guys, let's put this one to bed, and kiss it goodnight. SPD's is NOT required for a valid CoC.

As far as I know they're not a requirement but I would wait for better consensus on this if I were you.

[murdock]

the spike in the ground would be great but imagine tv people doing ground resistance tests...i cant see it happening...another test...better for the electrician to supply an earth point...just getting them to fit an earth will be a challenge on its own...still having to put in earth mats etc i cant see it happening...unless of course you add a hefty fine if not installed...i like the way the people who cut off hands for stealing do things...you dont see tooo many people walking around with no hands.

[murdock]

thanks for the link to sans..

just the fact that we are discussing sans is a step in the right direction...now we just need to get more people involved so that different views on various subjects can be discussed and practical issues being experienced...then all we need is to get the whos who in decision making at sans to hear what the contractors are experiences in the field...who knows there might still be hope for this industry.

regardless of any of the guidelines mentioned in the sans book...there is one important factor...did you take apropriate steps to ensure the safety of humans and animals whether it be guide lines form sans book or justu use plain old common sense....becuase the next question will be...with your experience and qualifications why did you not take apropriate action as required to protect them if you believed it was unsafe.

[Dave A]

regardless of any of the guidelines mentioned in the sans book...there is one important factor...did you take apropriate steps to ensure the safety of humans and animals whether it be guide lines form sans book or justu use plain old common sense....becuase the next question will be...with your experience and qualifications why did you not take apropriate action as required to protect them if you believed it was unsafe.

Which brings us to earth leakage units on plug points - how can anyone sign off an installation as reasonably safe without an earth leakage unit covering the plug points, just because the installation is older than a certain date?

We know better and have the equipment available nowadays - so why must we be obliged to accept outdated safety standards?

[murdock]

i agree with you 100%...i ended up buying one of the houses i did a coc for...at the time of inspection there was no e/l unit fitted...i signed over the house and wrote on the coc in bold letters...i would strongly advise an e/l unit is fitted.

i ended up buying the house...what do you think the first thing i did...fitted an e/l unit.

the reason...20 years ago i moved into a house which had no e/l unit...i had to replace a plug socket...so i went to the DB and switched off the plug circuit...assuming it was the correct circuit i removed the cover and grabbed the plug to pull it out because the wires where a bit short...because of the way i was holding it i didnt get thrown clear instead i was pulled against the wall...and stayed there for a period of time...god must have had other plans for me because i couldnt get myself loose and stayed there until i fell over which released me...i can still remeber that day like it was yesterday...it is a horrific experience.


my advice to anyone who has not got an e/l unit on the plug circuits no matter how old the house have one fitted asap...especially if you are an electrician...because that is always where the worste accidents happen because you think you are too smart and tooo relaxed when you work on your own property.

an earth leakage is a "personal protective device"...designed to protect human beings from electricution...not stop fires as some people think.

[AndyD]

At the risk of kicking a hornets nest, I'm in two minds about earth leakage breakers. Even if you get a shock off a system that's protected the time for the unit to disconnect is long enough to defibrilate you and possibly cause heart failure. If having an earth leakage installed makes people less concerned about getting shocks it could actually be a counter-productive measure.

Under normal circumstances to get an electric shock from an appliance you need two separate faults simultaneously and the person to be in contact with the appliance chassis at the same time. Firstly there needs to be a low-insulation fault which providesa path for current flow between the live wiring and the chassis. Secondly there needs to be a missing or poor earth which means there's no low resistance path for this fault current to safely flow.

If it was a choice between having an earth leakage fitted to an installation and having all your appliances tested twice a year, I think the latter option might result in less deaths from electric shock.

[Dave A]

At the risk of kicking a hornets nest, I'm in two minds about earth leakage breakers.

More like stepping into poo
Let's see if we can get you off the fence on this one

Even if you get a shock off a system that's protected the time for the unit to disconnect is long enough to defibrilate you and possibly cause heart failure.

If 20-30 mA is enough, then that's always going to come down to the path the current takes. (I thought it takes about 50-100 mA, but I suppose that it will vary according to each person's own constitution).

I'd far rather have protection that's going to automatically kill the juice within a fraction of a second than get hooked up and have to wait for blind luck to take a hand, or for someone to realise there's a problem and kill the supply.

If having an earth leakage installed makes people less concerned about getting shocks it could actually be a counter-productive measure.

Valid comment, but I think people are too blasé about electricity already. Consider the "if it works, it's fine" attitude test inspectors get from their clients. Ultimately, it's hard to see people becoming more casual about it than they are already.

If it was a choice between having an earth leakage fitted to an installation and having all your appliances tested twice a year, I think the latter option might result in less deaths from electric shock.

Testing an earth leakage unit is far simpler, and how often do people do that?

I think extending the earth leakage protection debate to appliances is a bit tricky anyway. That takes us right into the "everthing on earth leakage regardless" scenario. Plug points are a special risk zone, I reckon, as they present a number of problems and risks you shouldn't be getting elsewhere, particularly when it comes to reliable earthing.