Down lights, 220v lamps in 12 volt fittings?

[billybob2475]

So I am just finishing up a little project, refitting a flat I bought and have had an electrician in, checked his licence and saw his regestration papers before hiring. Now what I know of electrical work I learned on line so forgive me but I just want to run this by you guy before i pay this guy and except the Certificate of Compliance.

I see he has used 12Volt down light fittings with 220Volt lamps? Doesn't sound right to me. I read on the fitting 12V 50 Watt max but he has used a proper 220Volt lamp holder with a proper junction box on it and i see the red and black and the earth going into this connetion box which looks all proper and the cables going to the lamp holder have that heat proof sleeving on them. Does this light need to be earthed? Its out of reach from the floor but wasn't sure if it needed earthing.

Also in the bath rooms he has used 220V down lights, right above the shower, if i stretch I can touch the fitting? Should these be low voltage or enclcosed in some way?

Finally, not sure if this an electrical regulation question but the PINK in the loft is really close to the downlights, which are obviously hot, is this right? I mean there is a little space he has cleared around the fitting but i was wondering if there is a certain distance there has to between the down light and the insulation.

The rest of the job looks fantastic and his guys have done a remarkably neat job of running the cables and the distrubution board looked like a work of art so I'm not to worried just want to clear these little snags before he leaves site.

Sorry to ask but my usual electrician friend is away and very busy like all good electricians so I thought I'd ask here. Thanks in advance
Billy bob

[AndyD]

Are the lamps a bayonet type fitting?

Is the fitting itself SABS approved and does it have an earth point on it?

The area above and immediately around the downlights should be clear of all obstacles including pink insulation.

[billybob2475]

The lamps are 220 volt 50watt GU10. He has used two kind of light fitting. One is 220 volt fitting with a bracket and a connector on top and earthed and the other one, the ones I'm not sure of are the 12V ones, no transformers, with a 220 volt lamp and holder. They don't have an earth tag but I'm guessing that because your supposed to use a 12Volt lamp in them. This is my problem. I guess the chance of the fitting ever becoming live is so slim and even then its out of reach. So is that permitted under the wiring regulation. Is this compliant. They are Wacco fittings and are sabs approved.

The lights in the bathroom are earthed kind with the bracket and connector on to but I can reach one of them from the show. Does that need to be low voltage or enclosed? The whole installation is on a earth Leakage.

I moved all the pink from around the fittings myself.

[Sparks]

Hi, the rating on the D/L fitting is applicable to the lampholder only.
In order to legally use the 12V D/L fitting with a 220V lampholder, it would be required to be earthed and a junction box would need to be provided for the joint. The lampholders come with a piece of heat resistant wire, the length of which I am not satisfied with.
The space from the floor level of the shower upward to a height of "at least 2 500mm" is named "Zone 1". In this area equipment shall have ELCB protection, be so enclosed that "live" parts cannot be touched with a standard test probe and the equipmentmust be be class ll.
The actual 12V lamp is sometimes shielded with a lens in the front of it.
All equipment in Zone 1 must also be IPX5 compliant which means it must be protected against low pressure jets of water.

[billybob2475]

So all the bathroom lights, the one a within zomne 1 are going to be changed to 12Volt down lights. Not sure if they are going to be shielded but I couldn't find sheilded anywhere anyway. The transformers are in the ceiling space so you can't touch 220Volt and the main switch is an earth leakage so eveything is covered by it. The 12volt fittings with 220 volt lamps are going to have a proper bracket for 220 volt lamps. The sides of the brackets slot into where the springs which hold the fitting in place go. Does that sound better?

Thanke for the advice, I like things done properly.

[Sparks]

The law wants to protect you while you are having a shower. If you upgrade to a very high pressure geyser and some water splashes up to the D/L fitting, is there a chance that some water can reach the connection terminals? Can steam reach the connection terminals? The law says there must be no chance. If there is a chance it is illegal because it is unsafe.Let the guy put in a safe fitting. Your whole family use the shower.
The "shielded" lamps I am talking about are the ones that are flat in the front. An "open" one does not have the flat piece of glass in the front. You can stick your finger into the opening and touch the tiny "lamp" inside.

[Martinco]

The "shielded" lamps I am talking about are the ones that are flat in the front. An "open" one does not have the flat piece of glass in the front. You can stick your finger into the opening and touch the tiny "lamp" inside.

I have found these to be typically the 20 watt jobs. I have not seen 50 watt lamps with the flat glass shield

[AndyD]

The 50mm halogen dichroic lamps with the glass cover shields are available in all wattages including the 50w. Osram, philips, lohuis, GE, etc all make a range with the glass shields.

[murdock]

The 50mm halogen dichroic lamps with the glass cover shields are available in all wattages including the 50w. Osram, philips, lohuis, GE, etc all make a range with the glass shields.

and does anyone know why they make it with a glass cover?

[Martinco]

Next time I have a better look,
however do you not think that the 50w with a shield would not operate at a much higher temperature than an open one ?

[AndyD]

and does anyone know why they make it with a glass cover?

I'll stand to be corrected but I think it improves the colour rendering and the efficiency by reflecting the UV portion of the emitted spectrum back at the filament. In the earlier days of this type of lamp they also used to be more prone to exploding when the filament failed so the glass cover shield also offered some user protection if this happened.

I'm not sure about the temperature difference but I don't think there would be one. There's a direct relationship between filament temperature and the colour of the light, the colour is given as a temperature in Kelvin. Warm white is around 2500K upward and as the temp increases above 4500K it becomes cool white. Eventually as you get hotter you get 'daylight' colour around 7000K so to answer Martinco's question, if the filament temp was higher then the light colour would be different.

[Martinco]

Are you then saying that in theory a warm white should last longer than a daylight due to the lower temperature ?

[bergie]

maybe one of the reasons for the glass cover is that it can then be used in bathrooms.the open type are not allowed.

[AndyD]

Are you then saying that in theory a warm white should last longer than a daylight due to the lower temperature ?

That's a damn good question and I honestly don't know the answer for a fact. From what I remember of my somewhat blurred university days mean time to failure analysis curves are generally kinda logarithmic in shape. In other words there's relatively little difference in failure times within a certain band of operating variables....but, and it's a big but, as soon as you exceed a certain threshold for a variable such as operating temp then the mean failure time would decrease very rapidly with even a very small temp increase.

Sounds complicated but it's not; take a car for example, if unmaintained it might run failure free for 100,000 km if driven at a constant 2500rpm. At 5000 rpm it might run for 95000 km without failure but as soon as you go past the red line to 6500rpm it might only run for 10000 km before it fails, at 7000rpm the engine might only last 20km and at 8000rpm only 100 meters.

I'm guessing that the lamp OPERATING temperatures within the colour temperatures of warm white through to daylight would fall under the 'red line' of the lamps design so differences in mean time failure rates would be insignificant.

maybe one of the reasons for the glass cover is that it can then be used in bathrooms.the open type are not allowed.

I think they're legislated for bathroom use because they're more splash-proof/shatter proof with the glass cover shield.

[murdock]

someone once told me that the reason for the glass was to disapate the heat...the glass was used where they wanted the heat to go up into the roof space and the ones without the glass were used where the light was fitted in a confined roof space...so the heat could go go down...i dont know how tru that starement was...after doing some research...i was told that according to the european standard it is a safety requirement...for when the lamp explodes it contains the small pieces of the lamp...sounds logical...but you never know what to believe.