Geyser earthing and bonding

[Thys LOW Elektries]

I notice a lot of people uses 1.5 and 2.5 surfix on geysers I know the answer to this, based on the amps and distance I can do this.. Also the cost of the cable is less My question is just if bonding and earthing requires at least 2.5 earth conductor is the geyser then leggily earthed and bonded or do I miss something somewhere?
I prefer, at least, a 4mm conductor for geysers and aircons. Depending on the stove's requirements I use 4mm or 6mm

Greetings and enjoy your weekend

[Dylboy]

My thought process is the geyser can be a 1.5mm˛ earth for earthing purposes, however the pipes need to be bonded with a 2.5mm˛ so if the roof is bonded then a short 2.5mm˛ to geyser pipes (hot and cold ) is ok.



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[Alfred M]

Use copper Earth strap between hot and cold water pipes for earth bonding

[Alfred M]

I notice a lot of people uses 1.5 and 2.5 surfix on geysers I know the answer to this, based on the amps and distance I can do this.. Also the cost of the cable is less My question is just if bonding and earthing requires at least 2.5 earth conductor is the geyser then leggily earthed and bonded or do I miss something somewhere?
I prefer, at least, a 4mm conductor for geysers and aircons. Depending on the stove's requirements I use 4mm or 6mm

Greetings and enjoy your weekend

I am currently busy with the unit standard assessment and this presentation came up on the subject earth/ bonding of geysers see below slides of correct procedure

[Alfred M]

I am currently busy with the unit standard assessment and this presentation came up on the subject earth/ bonding of geysers see below slides of correct procedure
[ATTACH=CONFIG]8534[/ATTACH]

Sorry i see the slides are not very clear but basically hot and cold water pipes needs to be bonded as close to geyser as possible even the geyser flange needs to be bonded to cold water pipe with bamba straps using brass bolts and nuts. Then 2.5mm green/yellow or bare copper conductor back to db main earth bar. Wiring needs to be dedicated with earth leakage protection and curcuit breaker and double pole isolator close to geyser flange. 2.5mm Surfix or flat twin+earth the earth conductor must not be used for main earth of geyser the earth conductor is not 2.5mm. Bathroom zoning was also part of this presentation,ip ratings and electrical installations in bathrooms very interesting.

[GCE]

Hi
Couple of points that I would tend to disagree with

hot and cold water pipes needs to be bonded as close to geyser as possible even the geyser flange needs to be bonded to cold water pipe with bamba straps using brass bolts and nuts Then 2.5mm green/yellow or bare copper conductor back to db main earth bar.

I don't agree that strap needs to be used and back my statement up with with Note 2 under 6.13 as pasted below

6.13 Bonding
NOTE 1 The aim of bonding is to bring all the bonded parts to the same electrical
potential.
NOTE 2 No external conductor is required if compliance with the requirements for
continuity can be proved by the test in 8.6.2.

Wiring needs to be dedicated with earth leakage protection and curcuit breaker

Agree that a dedicated circuit but more than one geyser can be on the circuit
6.16.2.2 Dedicated circuits shall be provided for water heaters and there may
be more than one water heater on each circuit.

double pole isolator close to geyser flange.

6.16.1.4 The disconnecting device shall be positioned
a) within 1,5 m from the appliance,

2.5mm Surfix or flat twin+earth the earth conductor must not be used for main earth of geyser the earth conductor is not 2.5mm.

No where in the regulations is there a statement that says you may not use a wire size less than 2,5sqmm to earth a geyser

To bond a geyser yes - but if the geyser is bonded due to the copper pipes been bonded elsewhere and the readings being OK , then I should be able to earth the geyser with less than 2,5sqmm

[Alfred M]

Hi
Couple of points that I would tend to disagree with



I don't agree that strap needs to be used and back my statement up with with Note 2 under 6.13 as pasted below

6.13 Bonding
NOTE 1 The aim of bonding is to bring all the bonded parts to the same electrical
potential.
NOTE 2 No external conductor is required if compliance with the requirements for
continuity can be proved by the test in 8.6.2.



Agree that a dedicated circuit but more than one geyser can be on the circuit
6.16.2.2 Dedicated circuits shall be provided for water heaters and there may
be more than one water heater on each circuit.



6.16.1.4 The disconnecting device shall be positioned
a) within 1,5 m from the appliance,





No where in the regulations is there a statement that says you may not use a wire size less than 2,5sqmm to earth a geyser

To bond a geyser yes - but if the geyser is bonded due to the copper pipes been bonded elsewhere and the readings being OK , then I should be able to earth the geyser with less than 2,5sqmm

GCE learn something .Look at the person's credentials who did this presentation!!!?

[Derlyn]

I agree 100% with GCE's reply to all the points raised. GCE responded with the appropriate regulations in SANS 10143. Now let the presenter of the psentation back up hi's statements with the appropriate regs.

Maybe, just maybe you are confusing an earth continuity conductor with a bonding conductor.

[Derlyn]

Just one more point.
The cable manufacturer's manufacture the cable taking everything into account.

I doubt very much that the manufacturers of FTE would make a cable with an ECC that cannot be used for what it is intended to be.

What makes the earthing of a geyser different to that of a socket outlet ? Nothing.

[GCE]

GCE learn something .Look at the person's credentials who did this presentation!!!?

I was not querying his credentials - Rather take the time to look at the regs I have pasted and tell me where I have quoted the regs incorrectly

If what I have pasted is correct then query the presenter

To me it would appear that the presenter has an opinion that does not take the regulations into account -

With regards to learning something - I did , I read the statements you made and went to check the regulations - I differ from your/presenters opinion and backed myself with stating the relevant regulations .
So Alfred M - go read the regulations and show me why my statements are incorrect

[Alfred M]

I was not querying his credentials - Rather take the time to look at the regs I have pasted and tell me where I have quoted the regs incorrectly

If what I have pasted is correct then query the presenter

To me it would appear that the presenter has an opinion that does not take the regulations into account -

With regards to learning something - I did , I read the statements you made and went to check the regulations - I differ from your/presenters opinion and backed myself with stating the relevant regulations .
So Alfred M - go read the regulations and show me why my statements are incorrect

No no i never said you quoted or interpreted the regs incorrectly all i am saying is that we need to be open to new and better ways to do our job nothing in the presentation falls outside of the regs it is just taken a step further to ensure proper bonding and earthing. To me it would be safer to use 2.5 mm earth conductor even though your bonding resistance falls within the specifications of the regs. And to Derlyn that
jumps to your defence bonding is to bring all exposed metal parts to the same potential and an earth conductor carries fault currents to the main earthing bar in the db. There is a difference in a geyser compared to socket wiring extra care needs to be taken on any electrical installations where water is involved and socket outlets are not dedicated curcuits but geysers are. To take a example that is in the regs it is not compulsory for lights to go through a rcd to me all curcuit breakers on a db should go through an rcd makes the installation much safer and it is all about safety. Your next question may be "what about nuisance tripping" nuisance tripping is an actual fault and needs to be addressed, by using more than one rcd critical curcuits can have their own rcd. There is always room for improvement and learning we all learn new better ways every day unless you are stuck in a rut. Now guys explain to me on the few slides i have posted what is not inline with the regulations.Remember there are different ways of doing things but there is always "best practice". The regs also states that any electrical installation needs to be reasonably safe so meaning that with application of good practice you could make it safer.

[GCE]

Hi

I have no problem with doing more than the regulations require in the interests of best practice and safety.

I assume you are attending the unit standards so that you can write paper 1 and 2 to obtain an Installation License.

If the question is asked - " Do you require an external bonding conductor to bond hot and cold water pipes - True or False " You will answer True , because that is what you have been taught when in actual fact the answer is false. You are now 1 point less.

I have a problem when presenters are teaching opinions rather than sticking to the regulations. There is a huge failure rate on Paper 1 and 2 and I believe it is because presenters are teaching opinions not regulations.

I have the same problem with presenters teaching refresher course on SANS 10142-1 where they tend to give there opinions and the guys go back to the work place and carry out inspections for COC , sign them off and when the AIA comes along and fails certain aspects that same presenter when tackled then says " it is only small bits that you have to fix , just go back and correct it."
The presenter is not losing the money .He stands in front of the class and acts like the expert until he is tackled head on and then ducks and dives.
I have witnessed it with a contractor that came horribly short because he trusted the presenter .
I have tackled that presenter and he still continues teaching the crap that he does because he believes that he is the expert.

Yes , I have a huge problem with presenters that teach opinions

[Dylboy]

I did the Unit Standard course in April and it was heavily based on their opinion. So much so I did what was needed to be done but took a lot what they said with a pinch of salt and i have done my own research or asked and applied my own understanding to what the Sans book says.

Even asked a couple questions here with what was said there haha.

I argued a lot with them on the Sans book with regards to P1 and P2 as well. I was asked to actually speak more in private to not confuse the other students who may not know what I'm on about and then I was worried as these other students have down P1 and P2 so should know what words and topics I am on.

Best thing i took from it was to CYA...Cover your A....





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[Dylboy]

Lastly the Unit Standard course is not like course work or a set standard... It's basically complete a bunch of CoC's to what ever the teacher teaches...

There is no STANDARD at all, not like how in Matric across the country every one did the same maths sylabus. (Albeit the 2 types of the IEB and CAP or what ever ) but none the less all the same sylabus.

I spoke of this in another thread how there is no same standard so every single person is different and nothing is common....

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[Isetech]

This is what I enjoy about this forum, we all have our opinions, then we have the regs. I don't always agree with everything in the regs, but they are there as a guideline to a legal document, at the end of the day if you ever end up in the front of a court room, the judge, prosecutor and lawyers have no interest in peoples options, you will be judged on the facts according to the SANS document, like it or not.

No matter how thick your CV or large your portfolio, there is always space for improvement, one of the reasons I still visit this site.

I believe these threads help create awareness and would encourage more people to interact, voice your opinion right or wrong, so long as you walk away with a clearer understanding of the regulations, you are one step closer to improving the industry as a whole.