Stove Isolator position

[GCE]

Had a question posed on a stove isolator position
Contractor went in to carry out an inspection and issued a coc for a sale to go through.

Kitchen is upmarket and fully tiled and as happens there is a gas hob with an isolator above it.
The unit was built , as an estimate , around 2005.

The seller tells the contractor that the stove is not part of the sale and is removing the stove, so no need to relocate the isolator.

The seller removes the stove - The new owner takes possession and buys a gas stove and the gas installer will now not issue a gas certificate as the isolator is above the hob, as per pic.
The stove is a freestanding stove.

The new owner now wants the Electrical contractor to rectify the isolator position at the contractors cost as he reckons the COC is invalid.
Part of the reason is because he saw the gas hob in the position when he view and signed the purchase agreement.

Looking through the regulations , I keep switching between whether the contractor is correct or incorrect.

What and why would you do differently

[Derlyn]

Usually a gas stove is supplied with a normal 3 pin plug in which case the socket outlet into which it is plugged into serves as the isolator.

If the above is true then I would remove the isolator and fit a blank plate in order to satisfy the gas contractor.

Derlyn

[ians]

I saw a similar thing a couple days ago ... a socket below a tap ... the question was simple in that case ... was the tap installed before or after the socket outlet.

I have situation right now similar to this ... a little more complicated ... there is a stove isolator above the removeable electric stove and the DB is also above the stove not higher than 2.2 m and no extractor ... I am waiting for a copy of the COC which was last week.

The first question ... could you fit a stove isolator above a stove in the past ... if yes then there is no problem ... if the new owner purchased a gas hob and now you cant have a stove isolator above the gas hob ... whoever purchased the gas hob must pay to make it legal according to current regulations ... how could the inspector who issued the COC know the new owner was going to buy a gas stove.

If the stove that was in place was removed as indicated to the inspector then he has done nothing wrong ... if the stove was not removed and still in place ... then the seller who indicated that the stove would be removed would be liable for the costs. If the inspector was smart he would have written note on the COC about the stove.

We all know it is a really dumb place to have a stove isolator ... so close the stove using a plastic isolator ... really smart ... looking at the pic you dont need regulations to tell you its not right.

Just a note ... the isolator would be behind the stove if it was an electric stove ... normally electric stoves have have a back piece for the switches

[ians]

Who would fit a fridge next to a gas stove ?

[skatingsparks]

In terms of electrical regs:- 6.16.1.2 c)preferably not above the cooking application
Interms of gas regs - 200mm from edge of hob

[Dave A]

With the isolator that close above the hob, I can't help but think of 5.6.1 on environmental conditions or 5.3.8 on positioning of electrical equipment and wince a little. With SANS 10142-1 going on to specifically deal with the positioning of cooking appliance isolators (as mentioned in skatingsparks' post above), can we play that card though? Surely the drafters of the Standard have discussed this issue and decided on an advisory tone rather than an unambiguous determination.

So from an electrical regs point of view, it's bad design and while the location of the stove relative to the isolator is inadvisable for any cooking appliance, sadly compliant from a SANS 10142-1 point of view. Even with a gas appliance present, at least up until the gas standard was added as a reference to SANS 10142-1 (speaking under correction, I believe it has been added but don't have an edition 3 copy of SANS 10142-1 handy right now to double check).

From a gas regs point of view, never compliant.

For the electrician the best CYA in the situation you presented is a photo of the situation as at the time of the issue of the (I assume a 9.2.b) CoC.
If that photo had the gas stove in place and the electrician was relying on the statement by the seller - we don't rely on verbal statements from the seller; get it in writing.
And add a note in the CoC.

Just to add to the mix, what if there is fixed gas supply piping in place and no cooking appliance..?

[ians]

In terms of electrical regs:- 6.16.1.2 c)preferably not above the cooking application
Interms of gas regs - 200mm from edge of hob

For the record this reg is 6.16.3.1.2 c) ... I thought it had been removed under amdt 4 ... but then found it.

[ians]

I dont believe the inspector is at fault because the new owner could have installed an electric stove and its preferred that you don't install the isolator above the appliance, but it was already there. How was the inspector to know the new owner would by a gas stove.

The fact that he did buy a gas stove, now makes him responsible to bring the installation up to standard latest standards.


The key word ... preferably

Pg 186 ed(3.1)


6.16.3.1 Switch-disconnector
6.16.3.1.1 The circuit that supplies a cooking appliance through fixed wiring,
a stove coupler (see 6.16.3.3), or an industrial type socket-outlet
(see SANS 60309-1), shall have a readily accessible switch-disconnector.
The switch-disconnector may supply more than one appliance.
6.16.3.1.2 A switch-disconnector for a cooking appliance(s) shall
a) be in the same room as the appliance(s),
b) be at a height above floor level of not less than 0,5 m and not more than
2,2 m,
c) preferably not be above the cooking appliance(s),
d) be within 3 m of the appliance(s), but within 0,5 m of the appliance(s) if the
switch-disconnector's purpose is not clearly indicated, and
e) not be fixed to the appliance.

Note 5.2.4 c)

5.2.4 Positioning of equipment
Electrical equipment which, under normal conditions will be
a) exposed to flammable or explosive gas, vapour, dust or liquid, or to
external influences such as direct sunlight, corrosive vapour or oil, or
b) in a hazardous location,
shall be so selected or enclosed that it is protected against harmful effects
or it shall comply with the requirements of an applicable standard (or both).
c) for combined gas and electrical installation, cognisance shall be taken of
the requirement stipulated in SANS 10087-1.

https://thegasman.co.za/pages/lp-gas-regulations

[ians]

My one is going to get interesting even though the DB and the isolator can be mounted above the appliance (the stove is electric) ... however I dont believe the DB is IP 44 rated.

Who would mount a DB above a stove even if it is IP 67 rated) common sense would tell me it a ridiculous idea.

6.6.1.7 A distribution board shall not be mounted
a) in a bathroom, except outside zone 3 and unless the enclosure provides
an IP rating of IPX5 (see 7.1.4.3.6),
b) above a fixed cooking appliance or in a position where a cooking appliance
could be put below it, unless the enclosure provides a degree of protection
of at least IP44, or

[Derlyn]

I think we can have a week long discussion about the positioning of isolators and socket outlets in kitchens and after that, at some stage, each one of us is still going to find ourselves in a position where we are not 100% sure if the position of a certain plug or isolator is legal or not.

Reading through the regs again, I cannot find anything regarding cooking appliances rated at less than 16A. Please correct me if I have overlooked something.

How legal is it to have an undercounter plug supplying an appliance with the appliance( washing machine) pushed under the counter conceiling the plug? Same with a fridge in a cupboard with the plug directly behind it. Same with an extractor above the stove being plugged into a plug in the attic with it's lead running through the chimney into the attic.

So many questions.

Derlyn

[ians]

I think we can have a week long discussion about the positioning of isolators and socket outlets in kitchens and after that, at some stage, each one of us is still going to find ourselves in a position where we are not 100% sure if the position of a certain plug or isolator is legal or not.

Reading through the regs again, I cannot find anything regarding cooking appliances rated at less than 16A. Please correct me if I have overlooked something.

How legal is it to have an undercounter plug supplying an appliance with the appliance( washing machine) pushed under the counter conceiling the plug? Same with a fridge in a cupboard with the plug directly behind it. Same with an extractor above the stove being plugged into a plug in the attic with it's lead running through the chimney into the attic.

So many questions.

Derlyn

When we do new installations or kitchen revamps ... we fit isolators above the counter ... the problem with doing this ... the appliance warranty becomes an issue as soon as you cut the plug top off ... so you have a no win situation

[GCE]

Had a question posed on a stove isolator position
Contractor went in to carry out an inspection and issued a coc for a sale to go through.

Kitchen is upmarket and fully tiled and as happens there is a gas hob with an isolator above it.
The unit was built , as an estimate , around 2005.

The seller tells the contractor that the stove is not part of the sale and is removing the stove, so no need to relocate the isolator.

The seller removes the stove - The new owner takes possession and buys a gas stove and the gas installer will now not issue a gas certificate as the isolator is above the hob, as per pic.
The stove is a freestanding stove.

The new owner now wants the Electrical contractor to rectify the isolator position at the contractors cost as he reckons the COC is invalid.
Part of the reason is because he saw the gas hob in the position when he view and signed the purchase agreement.

Looking through the regulations , I keep switching between whether the contractor is correct or incorrect.

What and why would you do differently

Been reading the replies -
My thoughts are that the Contractor is signing off as reasonable safe and would be referring to the code at the time of installation - The installation was around 2005 and no reference was made to Gas regs , this only came about in Ed 3 July 2020
The reference to gas regulations is also hidden away ( in ED3) under fundamentals 5.2.4 and unfortunately is not under fixed appliances and particularly stoves which I think should be rectified .
The gas regulations state the isolator shall be above the level of the oven and 200mm clearance from the hob.( Pasted relevant section below)

What is wrong with pulling the freestanding hob 200mm away from the wall , the isolator is above the hob and now 200mm away - Surely it is then legal ?


In terms of the OHS Act, the provisions of this part of SANS 10142 apply
only from the point of control to the point of consumption.
Because this part of SANS 10142 is continually updated, problems can arise
on which version of the standard will be applicable when a contract is
signed. The date of approval of the latest revision or amendment of this part
of SANS 10142 will be the implementation date of the revision or the
amendment. The applicable version of this part of SANS 10142 is the one
with the latest implementation date before the contract date. So contracts
signed before the approval of an amendment shall be carried out in
accordance with the provisions of the unamended standard. If an existing
installation is extended or altered, such extension or alteration shall comply
with the provisions of this part of SANS 10142 that were applicable at the
time of the erection of the extension or alteration.
The edition of the standard that was applicable at the date of erection of an
electrical installation is to be considered the edition defining the
requirements applicable to that particular electrical installation.


SANS 10087-1:2013 Ed6
9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

[GCE]

Usually a gas stove is supplied with a normal 3 pin plug in which case the socket outlet into which it is plugged into serves as the isolator.

If the above is true then I would remove the isolator and fit a blank plate in order to satisfy the gas contractor.

Derlyn

The gas regualtions call for an isolator and do not allow a socket

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

[GCE]

For the electrician the best CYA in the situation you presented is a photo of the situation as at the time of the issue of the (I assume a 9.2.b) CoC.
If that photo had the gas stove in place and the electrician was relying on the statement by the seller - we don't rely on verbal statements from the seller; get it in writing.
And add a note in the CoC.

Just to add to the mix, what if there is fixed gas supply piping in place and no cooking appliance..?

There was a photo without an stove in position and what looks like a gas pipe.
There was a reasonable space to have a 4 plate hob and oven which may have made the distances ? debatable maybe but if it is not there you don't know.

[Derlyn]

The gas regualtions call for an isolator and do not allow a socket

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

This is interesting.

I have communicated with 3 gas installers regarding the above regulation and they are all of the opinion that a gas stove incorporating an electric oven in one unit, supplied with a 3 pin plug, does not need an isolator and can be plugged into a socket outlet.

The above regulation (9) only comes into play when the gas hob and electric oven are 2 seperate units. The oven must then conform to the regulations for electric ovens which requires that it has to have an isolator. The gas hob can however still be plugged into a socket outlet by means of the 3 pin plug provided.

Something else mentioned was that should the gas stove be of the type with a glass protector over the burners that is flipped up backwards when a burner is used, then the isolator may be on the wall above the stove.

Derlyn