No original CoC

[Dylboy]

Going on a post of Ians, and to keep his as a good reference post I decided to start a new one.

I have seen contractors do an Initial CoC as the original is lost where by they just do the test report and CoC on the plug circuit they installed only.

So basically they get a call to install new plug, they do the tests and inspections for that circuit only and make the initial CoC that plug circuit only and state in the section 3 that it is initial CoC for that circuit only ad original is not found/lost.

What are the thoughts on this practice....

I feel its wrong and struggling to find the rule that states you can not (also not looked very hard haha) but a loophole of sorts... I mean if you told the client this socket job is now an extra day due to a test report needed to be done and then a quote to get it to a safe standard he/she will tell you where to get off very quickly....


Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[LuX10N]

According to TDMI training this is the proper way to do it. If you request the original COC and they can't produce it (for you to compliment your COC onto), then you make it out as initial as you described and make a note of it in section 3.

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

[Dylboy]

Ahhh intresting ! I have a lot of respect for Oom Wynand. Thank you

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[ians]

Let me try understand what you are say ... so if I come along after you have handed in your COC (which becomes the Initial ... for 1 socket outlet) ... lets say I plan to install 20 plug sand 10 lights ... I then attach my supplementary certificate to your 1 socket outlet Initial certificate ?

If that is the case then I can understand why this industry is so screwed up.

[LuX10N]

Yes that's pretty much it. Well, it makes sense in that scenario because what are you supposed to do?

Another thing I do is, If I see anything else not up to code while installing the plug circuit and plug, I'll inform the client (it's actually our obligation to do that).

I'll still go ahead and issue a coc on my work if it's correct, even if the client refuses to fix the other things that don't affect my work.

Wynand from TDMI said some wise words: "A COC is 10% for regulation purposes and 90% for covering your own ass"





Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

[ians]

The question - at what point is an initial COC required for the entire installation ?

The more I think about this note the more ridiculous it sounds ... I would assume the same person who came up with this note was the same person who created the new 3 pin reg ... this is just far worse.

"NOTE 1 In terms of South African legislation, the user or lessor is responsible for the safety of the electrical installation"

I would like to see someone go around in public and ask people on the street who rent or even own a property ... how many of them are aware that they are responsible for the electrical installation ?

Another stupid question ... how many home owner have ever seen a COC never mind read the note at the top of the COC ?

If you were sitting at braai and asked everyone at the braai the question .... how many of the home owner would even know what you were talking about ? People would look at you like you have had too much to drink.

[LuX10N]

Very true Ian. Most people are oblivious. But not just the average person, even professionals in the Industry don't really understand a COC. Aslong as they can get the number needed on it, they dont care....

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

[ians]

"A COC is 10% for regulation purposes and 90% for covering your own ass"

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

Who's ass ... maybe the customer ... I dont see how it covers the inspector.

The customer would just sit in court and say ... "I dont know any better" I did what I thought was the "right thing to do" and got an inspector to check the installation ... then they will turn to you and say ... why did you issue an Initial COC if knew that the rest of the installation was not tested and you didnt switch off the illegal part of the installation ... "you as the competent person should know better".

I will NOT issue a COC if there is no COC for the rest of the installation ... I would do the tests ... take pics of my work ... record the information on a sample test report ( I have an XL spreadsheet which has the details) add a note to the email with the invoice " Supplementary COC will be issued pending a copy of the Initial COC".

As soon as you issue that COC ... you become liable ... because you are a competent registered electrical contractor/electrician ... who is aware of the dangers you have pointed out ... so I dont see how you CYA you actually JDYITS (just dropped yourself in the shyte)

Just like we do with properties being sold ... you CYA ... by issuing a notice not a COC that the property is not up to standard (written into the sale agreement) ... and it is the new owner responsibility to get a registered electrician in to test and repair and bring the property up to standard ... If I recall they have 6 months to fix and issue a COC.

The smart customer will then get a person who is silly enough to sign an Initial COC for installing 1 socket outlet

Think about it ... then you come along fit 1 socket and issue a COC ... thinking you have CYA ... instead you have just made yourself liable ... do you think that person is going to support your ass or their own ass ?

Trust me I have learnt ... when things turn bad ... you sit like a fool on your own.

[LuX10N]

If you inform a client of other potential faults that don't affect your work, the responsibility lies with them (as you mentioned). If they don't fix it, the responsibility is on them.

Let's say you install a plug and see a fault. You tell the customer, he tells you to fix it and so you do it. You then issue a COC. Little do you know that there are multiple other faults in his ceiling and causes the house to burn down. Because you have a detailed COC on the work you completed, you have proof that the fault was not on your side and cannot be held responsible. But if you fitted a plug, see a fault and do not issue a COC because the client doesn't want to fix it, it's gonna be another story in court. The COC covers you just as much. That's why you keep copies of COC's. You need to be able to show that whatever work you completed is complient.

Who is gonna fit one plug and test the entire premises to make sure there are no other faults? No one. It's the client's responsibility for his installation to be compliant. You test only the parts that affect or form part of your installation. That's why the COC has a section where you can exclude parts of the installation.

This isn't me saying this, this is according to TDMI training, who have accredited training facilities accross the country. If the client cannot produce an initial COC, or the COc is lost, you HAVE to make yours out as the initial, make a note of it and move on. Are you just not going to issue a COC then?



Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

[LuX10N]

"A new CoC for this installation, tick ‘Initial Certificate’, indicating that this CoC constitutes the complete and whole document, or
An additional CoC to an existing one, tick ‘Supplementary Certificate’, which indicates that this is a partial document only, and it must be read together with an ‘Initial Certificate’ and possibly other ‘Supplementary Certificates’ for it to be valid."

"Initial" doesn't mean "complete installation".
It refers to the document as a whole.

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

[Derlyn]

"A new CoC for this installation, tick ‘Initial Certificate’, indicating that this CoC constitutes the complete and whole document, or
An additional CoC to an existing one, tick ‘Supplementary Certificate’, which indicates that this is a partial document only, and it must be read together with an ‘Initial Certificate’ and possibly other ‘Supplementary Certificates’ for it to be valid."

"Initial" doesn't mean "complete installation".
It refers to the document as a whole.

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

How do attorneys doing conveyancing know if the "Initial" COC received from the electrician is suitable to be used for a property to change ownership ?
Or is it a case of, it's got a number, it must be ok.

Derek

[Derlyn]

Yes that's pretty much it. Well, it makes sense in that scenario because what are you supposed to do?

Another thing I do is, If I see anything else not up to code while installing the plug circuit and plug, I'll inform the client (it's actually our obligation to do that).

I'll still go ahead and issue a coc on my work if it's correct, even if the client refuses to fix the other things that don't affect my work.

Wynand from TDMI said some wise words: "A COC is 10% for regulation purposes and 90% for covering your own ass"





Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

This is what the occupational health and safety act prescribes and I quote:

(3)
If at any time prior to the issuing of a certificate of compliance any fault or defect is detected in any part of the electrical installation, the registered person shall refuse to issue such certificate until that fault or defect has been rectified: Provided that if such fault or defect in the opinion of the registered person constitutes an immediate danger to persons in a case where electricity is already supplied, he or she shall forthwith take steps to disconnect the supply to the circuit in which the fault or defect was detected and notify the chief inspector thereof.

Peace out .. Derek

[LuX10N]

Thanks Derek. This still needs a bit of clarity though. Is this refering to the complete whole installation? Or does this refer to your specific part that you have worked on/completed?

Lets use our original example: You install a single new plug point to an existing installation and discover that the earth leakage is faulty, then yes, you can't and don't issue a COC, because it affects the new part to your installation.

But if you fit a plug point to an existing installation, and discover a light switch is faulty, you can issue a COC for the work that you have done and completed, as the light switch does not affect your part of the installation.

It's the owners responsibility for safe use and maintenance of the installation.

Regarding the initial COC and the surveying attorneys, I'm not sure on that. I just went by with what has been told to me by an accredited training institution, as I have specifically asked the facilitator what happens when an initial COC cannot be presented to you.



Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

[Leecatt]

I would say that
"in any part of the electrical installation"
speaks for itself.

Further,
2.8.2 Sub-regulation 2
A registered person may issue a certificate of compliance accompanied by the
required test report only after having satisfied himself or herself by means of
an inspection and test that-
(a) a new electrical installation complies with the prov1s1ons of
regulation 5(1) and was carried out under his or her general
control; or
(b) an electrical installation which existed prior to the publication of
the current edition of the health and safety standard
incorporated into these Regulations in terms of regulation 5(1 ),
complies with the general safety principles of such standard; or
(c) an electrical installation referred to in paragraph (b), to which
extensions or alterations have been effected, that-
(i) the existing part of the electrical installation complies with
the general safety principles of such standard and is
reasonably safe, and
(ii) the extensions or alterations effected comply with the
provisions of regulation 5(1) and were carried out under
his or her general control.

It is my understanding that the only way to comply with part C of the above is to do an inspection of the entire electrical installation.
It has always been my understanding that by issuing a certificate of compliance for an additional plug one takes responsibility for the entire electrical installation.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

[ians]

The meaning of the word:

initial
/ɪˈnɪʃ(ə)l/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
existing or occurring at the beginning.