Another Reg

[Dylboy]

Reading an article and it states a pro for a generator is that you can simply switch it on and then plug it into any socket... I want a reg that I can quote if possible as to why that is wrong

We know it is not safe and a myriad of issues but a reg number goes a long way in bringing it up.

Also the generators are portable and centre taped etc which too is illegal as it is V-o-V almost every time.

Also I may be ignorant and it is fine but I highly doubt it by safety if main switch not tuned off and maintenance get a clap.... also if it is turned on while generator is running... also the 2.5mm cable may have to carry way more amps as it is now running the house amd making that 2.5mm a fuse wire...


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[Derlyn]

Reading an article and it states a pro for a generator is that you can simply switch it on and then plug it into any socket... I want a reg that I can quote if possible as to why that is wrong

We know it is not safe and a myriad of issues but a reg number goes a long way in bringing it up.

Also the generators are portable and centre taped etc which too is illegal as it is V-o-V almost every time.

Also I may be ignorant and it is fine but I highly doubt it by safety if main switch not tuned off and maintenance get a clap.... also if it is turned on while generator is running... also the 2.5mm cable may have to carry way more amps as it is now running the house amd making that 2.5mm a fuse wire...


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It will be interesting to know the name of this publication.
I suggest you invest in the latest SANS 10142-1 edition. It doesn't come cheap, but is money well spent.

That's another thing. The price. Personally I think that the SANS 10142 should be made available to those that supply proof of their wireman's license and present registration with DOL at a drastically reduced price. That might actually go a long way in improving the quality of electrical work presently being carried out. I for one can remember a time when I desperately wanted a copy of the latest regulations, but at the time, couldn't afford buying it. I'm sure there are others who presently find themselves in that same position.

Peace out .. Derek

[Dylboy]

Yes ya I have the Ed.3 but want to find a single law reason as to why can not plug the gen feed direct to sockets, telling the client or whom ever that you can't do it does not always settle well with them and want a reason. But with typing all this I feel there are multiple ones actually that make it and not one law that states" generator shall not be plugged into a socket"

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[ians]

I dont agree ... I recently completed an installation with a plug top and socket outlet for an 8 kva generator ... contacted the AIA ... sent all the drawings ... specs and design ... it was given the green light.

The way I see it ... if the AIA dont see a problem who is going to investigate ... the DOL ... yeah right.

[Dylboy]

I dont agree ... I recently completed an installation with a plug top and socket outlet for an 8 kva generator ... contacted the AIA ... sent all the drawings ... specs and design ... it was given the green light.

The way I see it ... if the AIA dont see a problem who is going to investigate ... the DOL ... yeah right.

That is interesting! Quick one, was the generator earthed or a centre tap on winding one ?

As you say there is no policing of any sorts, I have seen and know of a few people who plug the genny straight to socket so maybe it is OK as the AIA say.

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[Derlyn]

Yes ya I have the Ed.3 but want to find a single law reason as to why can not plug the gen feed direct to sockets, telling the client or whom ever that you can't do it does not always settle well with them and want a reason. But with typing all this I feel there are multiple ones actually that make it and not one law that states" generator shall not be plugged into a socket"

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7.12.2.5 Say no more.

Peace out .. Derek.

[Dylboy]

7.12.2.5 Say no more.

Peace out .. Derek.

Thank you ! I was mucking about in chapter 6.... should have gone straight to alt supplies, I went to the Annex of it... close but no cigar.


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[ians]

This is a good example of why I keep saying ... be careful of information shared on social media ... unless you have all the details including pics ... design criteria ... etc of the installation ... dont assume anything.

Let start with the generator ... after many hours of reading the regs (the new ed 3 regs I finally got around to buying) ... everything was taken into consideration ... including my experience and the person who has 100 times more technical experience in the industry than I do.

The generator on this site is not a V-O-V type generator ... however in saying that ... who says the owner doesnt burn out the generator and upgrade to a new one that might be a a V-O-V ... there is no way for you as the electrician to stop that ... just like you cant stop the home owner from plugging a suicide cord into your electrical installation that you signed off as "reasonably safe" 2 hours ago.

I have taken all the regs into consideration and designed the system to be a safe as possible.

Earthing and earth spike where installed as required.

The socket outlets are suitable for the full load of an 8 KVA generator.

The plug top and socket outlet is selected ... taking into consideration the generator is the source of power ... something I have noticed people dont take into consideration ... they put a plug male top on generator and a female socket on the wall ... eeeeeeish.

Cables sizes calculated and short circuit protection taken into consideration.

Type of cabling used due to environment conditions where taken into consideration.

Change over switch as per regs.

Indicator lights for both mains power and generator power (different colors) ...

Even a volt meter and current meter ... visible from both the main DB and changeover panel.

Combo breaker/isolator with overload protection and short circuit protection installed in the change over DB/panel.

Even the location and the fumes from the generator while running was taken into consideration ... something we are looking to improve ... because we want the generator to run inside a garage without having to worry about fumes from the exhaust ... fuel in the tank ... refilling the generator with fuel etc ... all these this must be considered before we can position the generator inside the garage ... I thought a stainless steel exhaust out the building and up 3 m would do the trick ...but it is not good enough ... for now it has wheels and must be moved to the specific location while in use.

The bottom line ... generators are dangerous ... make sure you take precaution ... because at the end of the day when something goes wrong ... you will be asked a lot of questions during the hearing ... you can only do what you think is right with the resources ... information and experience you have gain over the years ... just remember sparkies dont wear and dont have super powers.

I had a situation recently with an insurance assessor ... I was grilled for more than 2 hours ... he was trying to find a loop hole to get out of paying 2 claims making up around R 300k ... eventually they managed to use the fact that there was no storm on that day and therefore were not liable for claim and the claim had to be directed to the council ... however because we had made provision for every single type of event ...

There is lightning protection at the meter box and every DB ... there is under voltage/over voltage ... leakage current ... overcurrent protection ... even a device to protect against neutral being cut or stolen ... you name it ... it has the device ... they used the weather and said it was a surge from an external means other than the weather and ther ewas a clause to protect them for that scenario ... in short you pretty screwed unless they building takes a direct hit.

[Derlyn]

Another regulation that most electricians have forgotten about is 6.11.5

This regulation concerns the readily accessible earthing terminal for other services which everyone used to install close to the trapdoor or any other convenient spot and bonded to the consumers earthing terminal with 6mm sq wire. When the wording of this reg changed from "shall be installed" to "may be installed", every electrician that I know took it for granted that this readily accessible earthing terminal was not needed anymore and don't bother about it ......

However

6.13.2.6 reads " Other services such as water, gas, etc. in conductive material, which enter the premises, shall be bonded to the readily accessible
earthing terminal by means of a conductor of cross sectional area at least 2,5mm sq copper or equivalent"

The thing is, more than 70% of the houses that I inspect have either copper water pipes or gas pipes that according to the above reg, shall be bonded to the readily accessible earthing terminal. How is this done if there is no such terminal. Xolani and I still regularly install such terminals close to the trap door and bond the gas and water pipes to same.

Peace out .. Derek.

[Dylboy]

Very intresting all round! Ians, what device do you use for the under voltage and then for the lost neutral? I know of this matt-e device for broken PEN but not sure of a local brand.

And the readily accessible terminal i also saw that when I was writing the exams...
I would like to add them as well but not always viable for the boss for us to do it as often a race to the bottom on domestic stuff... but will bring it up and try do it as its in the book.

Another one I find is that a 20A breaker on 2.5mm for sockets the reg 6.15.3 undent C.
About protected sockets etc and needs to be 16A or less etc.
Struggling to copy paste it on the phone.

SANS 10142-1:2020
Edition 3
180
6.15.2 Rating
6.15.2.1 Socket-outlets shall be rated in accordance with the intended load.
Unless otherwise allowed in this part of SANS 10142, socket-outlets rated at
less than 16 A shall not be used in an electrical installation.
6.15.2.2 The anticipated load of a circuit that feeds socket-outlets shall not
exceed 5 kW.
6.15.3 Single-phase circuits that only supply socket-outlets rated
at 16 A
Single-phase circuits that only supply socket-outlets rated at not more than
16 A
a) shall have overcurrent protection,
b) shall use conductors that are rated at not less than 16 A, and
c) shall, if the circuit protection is rated at more than 20 A, use only protected
socket-outlets, with, as far as is practicable, discrimination between the
protective devices for the circuit and the protective devices associated with
the socket-outlets. The protective device of a protected socket-outlet shall,
1) have a fixed rated current that does not exceed the rating of the socket-
outlet,
2) be mounted next to the socket-outlet that it protects,
3) provide protection against overload currents,
4) provide protection against short-circuit currents, unless short-circuit
protection is provided by a separate device, for example, on the
distribution board,
5) if it needs the protection of a back-up short-circuit device, be marked
with the required or maximum rating of the back-up device,
6) if it protects more than one socket-outlet, be so installed that all the
socket-outlets are connected in parallel, have the same rated current,
and are mounted next to the device, and
7) if it is a circuit-breaker, comply with the requirements of 6.8.2.
[emoji2398] SABS
Licensed exclusively to Dylan
Copying and network storage prohibited.

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[ians]

I started using the clearline trip connect around 2009 ... but after a few knocks ... due to a really crap power supply from the council ... we started experiencing problems with the tripconnect units ... then I couldnt get hold of anyone ... I sent units back for assessments ... without much joy ... in other words I was getting "we dont care much for small business cold shoulder" .... I rattled the cage long enough and eventually got a response and they have since replaced 1 of the units.

They went in for software upgrades ... apparently clearline contract their software out to a sub contractors ... unfortunately there is no other device that I am aware of which can do the same thing.

[ians]

I am using 32 amp industrial type sockets for the generators.

[ians]

All the things you listed were taken into consideration ... even the fuse in the generator and the cable glands on the generator had to be metal not PVc due to the vibration ... cable flexibility the works ... right down to protective layers on the cable for when it is in use.

[Dylboy]

And thats how an alternative supply should be done in my opinion. I liked the gland change to due to vibration, never thought of that.
With regards to that article I feel the layman or handyman would see it as taking the gen power straght into the socket available next to the TV... I mean at the end of the day if it works it works and if the magazine said its OK then its OK....... no need to pay a competent and qualified person if it works and the magazine says its OK....

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