Wrong to use black / red wire in new build

[Simon123]

So my house is complete, and plans finally passed for the granny cottage at the far end.

I have a whole box of house wire (2,5mm and 1,5mm) from my previous house build and it should be enough for the granny cottage. Earth is fine, but the wire I have is black and red. Can this still be used? I think I'm sure I heard the electrician who did my place say he used blue / brown. I recently changed a plug at my friend's place (must be 5 years old) and it was black / red to live and neutral, so now I'm confused.

If 100% not allowed, I wont ask electrician to use it. If I can, that's a welcome saving.

It's 100m rolls of Aberdare house wire still sealed.

[GCE]

Hi
House wire black must be used for Neutral - No other color can be used for neutral in an AC system.

Red will be fine for the live.

A granny flat might be done in Twin & Earth as it is quicker meaning cheaper as well .

There are arguments for both methods of installation and good and bad for both depending on , basically how you feel on the day.

[ians]

So my house is complete, and plans finally passed for the granny cottage at the far end.

I have a whole box of house wire (2,5mm and 1,5mm) from my previous house build and it should be enough for the granny cottage. Earth is fine, but the wire I have is black and red. Can this still be used? I think I'm sure I heard the electrician who did my place say he used blue / brown. I recently changed a plug at my friend's place (must be 5 years old) and it was black / red to live and neutral, so now I'm confused.

If 100% not allowed, I wont ask electrician to use it. If I can, that's a welcome saving.

It's 100m rolls of Aberdare house wire still sealed.

Brown and blue is used for flexible cables ... appliances etc ... I have seen it used for day/night switches etc.

Cable colour coding could be another interesting topic to go into.

Blue could be a phase wire in a 3 phase system

Blue could be the neutral in an appliance cable.

Blue could even be a return in a light circuit.

Just to confuse people ... there are importers bringing in products designed for the USA and not SA ... the black is live and not the neutral... but that is discussion for another day.

[GCE]

Have attached the relevant regulation with regards to colour

6.3.3.2 The means of identification for an a.c. circuit may be by colours or
by numbers, as follows:
a) where colours are used
1) a neutral conductor shall be identified by black only,
2) an earth continuity conductor shall be identified by the bi-colour
green/yellow only, or by being bare. Green/yellow insulated
conductors shall NOT be used as live conductors under any
circumstances,
3) a phase conductor shall be identified by a colour other than
green/yellow, green or black, and
NOTE Welding cable manufactured to SANS 1576 should not be used in
circuits above 100 V.
4) the colours may be applied at the ends of the conductor (of a
multicore cable) by means of durable colour marking (e.g. insulating
sleeves or by electrical insulating tape wound more than once around
the conductor), and
b) where numbers are used, "0" shall indicate the neutral conductor.
NOTE Where the purpose or the function of a conductor is apparent, marking is
not required.

[Simon123]

Thanks - was totally confused. Going to pull a socket off tonight when home and see what my house was wired with recently.

So the black / red / green rolls of house wire I have will be perfect. this is such good news as the cottage build is coming in at crazy pricing, so each grand saved goes a long way.

once again, thanks to the experts.

[ians]

Have attached the relevant regulation with regards to colour

6.3.3.2 The means of identification for an a.c. circuit may be by colours or
by numbers, as follows:
a) where colours are used
1) a neutral conductor shall be identified by black only,
2) an earth continuity conductor shall be identified by the bi-colour
green/yellow only, or by being bare. Green/yellow insulated
conductors shall NOT be used as live conductors under any
circumstances,
3) a phase conductor shall be identified by a colour other than
green/yellow, green or black, and
NOTE Welding cable manufactured to SANS 1576 should not be used in
circuits above 100 V.
4) the colours may be applied at the ends of the conductor (of a
multicore cable) by means of durable colour marking (e.g. insulating
sleeves or by electrical insulating tape wound more than once around
the conductor), and
b) where numbers are used, "0" shall indicate the neutral conductor.
NOTE Where the purpose or the function of a conductor is apparent, marking is
not required.

Someone should share this info with people importing occupation sensors using the black as live ... eeeeish.

While they are sharing it would be a good idea to share this info with all the "sparkies" who use the green/yellow as the return on day/night switches when they use cabtyre to join the sensor in a round box

[Derlyn]

While they are sharing it would be a good idea to share this info with all the "sparkies" who use the green/yellow as the return on day/night switches when they use cabtyre to join the sensor in a round box

I also use the green/yellow conductor in cabtyre for the return from day/night sensors ( convenient ) but I slip a peace of red heatshrink over the ends to make it legal.

Peace out .. Derek

[ians]

I also use the green/yellow conductor in cabtyre for the return from day/night sensors ( convenient ) but I slip a peace of red heatshrink over the ends to make it legal.

Peace out .. Derek

Reading note 6.3.3.2

2) an earth continuity conductor shall be identified by the bi-colour
green/yellow only, or by being bare. Green/yellow insulated
conductors shall NOT be used as live conductors under any
circumstances

[Derlyn]

Reading note 6.3.3.2

2) an earth continuity conductor shall be identified by the bi-colour
green/yellow only, or by being bare. Green/yellow insulated
conductors shall NOT be used as live conductors under any
circumstances

4) the colours may be applied at the ends of the conductor (of a
multicore cable) by means of durable colour marking (e.g. insulating
sleeves or by electrical insulating tape wound more than once around
the conductor)

Quite legal when the conductor is in a multicore cable such as cabtyre.

Peace out ... Derek

[AndyD]

The SA electrical regs contradict the international harmonised colours for neutral (and phase for that matter) with 3-phase cables such as HO7 or 3185y type trailing cable. Ref IEC 60455 / 60446.
The harmonised colours are L1-Brown L2-Black L3-Grey N-Blue. Also the grey is often so dark it's difficult to differentiate it from the black. We just use heatshrink indicators with large lettering to label the wires as L1, L2, L3 and N. Bottom line to be safe with an existing install is you've always got to test to establish line and neutral colours.

[Dave A]

I also use the green/yellow conductor in cabtyre for the return from day/night sensors ( convenient ) but I slip a peace of red heatshrink over the ends to make it legal.

Peace out .. Derek

Reading note 6.3.3.2

2) an earth continuity conductor shall be identified by the bi-colour
green/yellow only, or by being bare. Green/yellow insulated
conductors shall NOT be used as live conductors under any
circumstances

4) the colours may be applied at the ends of the conductor (of a
multicore cable) by means of durable colour marking (e.g. insulating
sleeves or by electrical insulating tape wound more than once around
the conductor)

Quite legal when the conductor is in a multicore cable such as cabtyre.

Peace out ... Derek

Derek, I gently suggest you have not given the term "under any circumstances" its proper due.

[Derlyn]

Good morning to you, Dave. Happy weekend.
The lawn is waiting for me to be mowed after some good rains, but first onto more serious stuff.

Interesting subject which I think deserves some more debate and discussion.

There are reasons why certain regulations have been put in place.
I am one of those who not only wants to know what the regulations say, but also the reason/s behind such regulation.

As far as conductor identification is concerned, why is special mention made of multicore cables ?

My take is as follows:

There are only 2 sections of a multicore cable where conductor identification is of importance ie. the ends where the conductors protrude.
What happens along the length of the cable is of little importance as the conductors are 1) invisible and 2) not easily accessible.
The same cannot be said for a single conductor that is both visible and accessible along it's entire length.

How many times have I come across a single phase DB supplied with a 3 core cable where the red is used for supply, blue for neutral and white for earth.
What would now be the right approach assuming that the cross section of the conductors are sufficient for the intended purpose ? To replace the cable ? No.
1. The blue conductor is made black with either tape or heatshrink for the neutral and
2. The white conductor is made green/yellow as above for the earth.
Acceptable ? I would say "yes" as per 6.3.3.2(4)

Now we have a situation.

The earth conductor, even although the ends are clearly identified green/yellow, is actually white. Is this of importance ? I would say "No" because it cannot be seen and is not easily accessible. Likewise, the neutral, black at the ends, but blue inside the cable, according to regs is acceptable.

This is my understanding of why a clear distinction is made in the regulations between identification of single conductors and those housed in multicore cables.

This is also the reason that I, with a clear conscience, use cabtyre for day/night sensors after changing the colour of the green conductor protruding from the cable to red by using heatshrink.

Maybe some of the other toppies can comment.

BTW I do agree that single green/yellow conductors not forming part of a multicore cable should under NO circumstances be used as live conductors.

Peace out ... Derek

[GCE]

Hi

Don't understand the confusion - As Dave stated above it is pretty clear by using the words " Shall NOT " and " under no circumstances" - The NOT is in capital letters and bold in the regulation.

I see the multi core cable , like a 7 core armour cable , which does not come at all with a Green/yellow being marked at the ends to show the earth - In the old days a multi core armour cable used to come with all the wires black and numbered.
To take a green yellow and marked it as a phase cannot be legal especially since it is emphatically stated that it " Shall NOT be used under any circumstance " - Only having a 3 core piece of cabtyre lying loose in the bakkie cannot change the " under any circumstances " clause even if it is marked.

I believe that an AIA would fail the installation.

[Dave A]

The way I understand interpretation of the code is that we need to ensure that what we do complies with all the applicable clauses. Quite often where I see an argument about a "grey" area, if one looks closely there has been an interpretation such that an applicable clause has been ignored, or there is a claim that one clause trumps another.

The classic example is earthing of electrical equipment -

6.12.3.1 The following conductive parts shall be earthed:

e) earthing terminals of all permanently connected electrical equipment and appliances;

But despite this some contractors deem they don't have to connect downlighters with earth terminals to earth because -

6.12.3.2 The following conductive parts do not need to be earthed:

b) exposed conductive parts of fixed electrical equipment that are:

1) out of arm's reach from the floor (or walking) level,
2) out of arm's reach from a structure that is bonded to earth, and
...

If 6.12.3.2 commenced with "Despite the provisions of 6.12.3.1" they would have a case. But reality is the installation needs to comply with both clauses. The solution is simple - electrical equipment with an earth terminal needs to be connected to earth.

An example of a specific exception is 7.1.5.1 which is very specific -

7.1.5.1 Except in the case of isolated supplies, an earth continuity conductor shall be connected to the earth terminal of class 1 fixed appliances in a bathroom.

This, quite clearly, is intended to trump the requirement of 6.12.3.1.e.

[Derlyn]

The way I understand interpretation of the code is that we need to ensure that what we do complies with all the applicable clauses. Quite often where I see an argument about a "grey" area, if one looks closely there has been an interpretation such that an applicable clause has been ignored, or there is a claim that one clause trumps another.

The classic example is earthing of electrical equipment -

6.12.3.1 The following conductive parts shall be earthed:

e) earthing terminals of all permanently connected electrical equipment and appliances;

But despite this some contractors deem they don't have to connect downlighters with earth terminals to earth because -

6.12.3.2 The following conductive parts do not need to be earthed:

b) exposed conductive parts of fixed electrical equipment that are:

1) out of arm's reach from the floor (or walking) level,
2) out of arm's reach from a structure that is bonded to earth, and
...

If 6.12.3.2 commenced with "Despite the provisions of 6.12.3.1" they would have a case. But reality is the installation needs to comply with both clauses. The solution is simple - electrical equipment with an earth terminal needs to be connected to earth.

An example of a specific exception is 7.1.5.1 which is very specific -

7.1.5.1 Except in the case of isolated supplies, an earth continuity conductor shall be connected to the earth terminal of class 1 fixed appliances in a bathroom.

This, quite clearly, is intended to trump the requirement of 6.12.3.1.e.

Dave

Your interpretation and mine differ somewhat.

6.12.3 Earthing of exposed conductive parts

6.12.3.1 The following conductive parts shall be earthed.

a) all exposed conductive parts of an installation other than those described in 6.12.3.2.

6.12.3.2 The following conductive parts do not need to be earthed.
6.12.3.2 then goes on to list a number of conductive parts that do not need to be earthed.

If one had to interpret the regulations your way then 6.12.3.2 would never apply to any situation.

My question is ... Why is it there ?

Peace out ... Derek



@ GCE. I've never owned a bakkie.