coc

[murdock]

one of my customers decide to buy a premises...so i go out to site to meet with the electrical contractor who has carried out COC inspection.

we meet on site and walk through the site...most of the light dont work he says the certificate only covers to the light terminals...it doesnt cover the light fitting...fair enough...there are about 58 lights which need to be fixed and all the lights are badly rusted...so we move on...go through the DBs old breakers wiring old...but pvc this is good...blank covers missing on the DB and some of the ext plug boxes require blanks...we get to the first floor this is were i really start getting concerned because the water is litterally running out the light fittings but the fittings are not covered by the COC so we dont need to worry... yeah right...the supply cable is strapped to the sprinkler system... i have seen worse but i must be missing something...the building is being sold as is so it is fine that the lights dont work...well i feel that maybe i have been taking this COC thing too seriously and need to be a lot more relaxed with my inspection and save my customers a lot of money at least i dont have to worry about getting caught out for issuing unvalid COCs because there i no policing agent here in KZN and at the end of the day the customer just wants the cheapest job.

by the way the electrician who issued the COC 3 months ago finally arrived at my customers flat replaced 2 plugs...still hasnt put the labels on the DB or the blanks feels they are not needed and left...2 days later the ceiling fan made a load bang and no longer works...well i suppose the fan is not covered by the coc so he wont have a claim...i will just have to make some money and go finish what the other electrican has already been paid for.

[Marq]

Question (if you dont mind) - Does the labelling of a db board form part of a compliance certificate?
I have one label on my board of many switches - it says 'geyser' and yet that circuit and breaker belongs to the upstairs lights. This is the circuit that the electrician has just been around to give a certificate on.

Another question that arose this week - Is a certificate only issued for a complete circuit or can a small section of work also be certified? For example - If I ask an electrician to join two plugs together - can I ask for a certificate from him certifying that what he has done is compliant?

If a problem arises on a small section of a circuit and I ask the electrician to certify just that section - Can this be done? - Or does the electrician now have have to look at all the fittings and goodies on the circuit and come up with a complete circuit certificate? If this is the case how can a certificate be issued if there are other problems because the electrician giving the certificate is saying that the work he has just carried out is not compliant?

[murdock]

i think it is more important to make sure the electrician you are using is registered...firstly he needs an ECB number if he doesnt have an ECB number chase him away.

if states in the sabs book...all circuits must be clearly labelled.

i am talking about KZN i am not familiar with other provinces...firstlly understand an electrical contractor doesnt have to be a member of the eca but he MUST be registered with the ecb to operate as an electrical contractor or to carry out electrical work...if he belongs to the eca at least you can contact them and someone will assit you if you have a query... if he is not chances are you will be left out in the cold with nobody to assist you...i have heard of the AIA but i am not familiar with this organisation and i dont know that they operate in KZN.

if an electrician installs a new plug and runs a cable to another plug...he must issue you with a COC if he refuses dont pay him...turn it around and make him sue you so that you can get clarity on the situation...i must warn you...you will be in for a long haul.

[murdock]

here is another problem.... i quote to install a flameproof fan R14000.00 installed and connected in a classified area because it a paint store/mixing room...a cople months later i stop off to check what happened abut my quote...yes there it was...a standard R300 special mounted on the wall by someone who has no idea about explosive areas...i just walked away...hey they have standard light fittings in a spray booth so why would they worry about a fan in the paint store!!! i also start questioning the bylaws why have them if nobody follows them...somebody should be checking up...i hear every now and again there are flash inspection they send out a few inspectors who have no idea what they are talking about...one of my customers called me from springfield and said there was someone with a clipboard wanting to know what power they were consuming i told him to tell the person 250 amps that was it never hear from them again.

we have a serious power issues in this country....in america you pay penalties if your power factor goes below 0.95 in this country few people even knows what power factor is...they are giving you energy saver lamps which have such a bad power factor thy are loaded with mercury
and distorts your sine wave worse than any other device...is there hope???what happened to the old ripple relay mounted in your DB...it is the millions of energy savers which are being given away which start adding up.

i might be way off the mark here if someone can tell me otherwise please do these forums are open diccussions.

[Dave A]

Question (if you dont mind) - Does the labelling of a db board form part of a compliance certificate?

Yes.

I have one label on my board of many switches - it says 'geyser' and yet that circuit and breaker belongs to the upstairs lights. This is the circuit that the electrician has just been around to give a certificate on.

Is there a geyser on that circuit too?

Another question that arose this week - Is a certificate only issued for a complete circuit or can a small section of work also be certified? For example - If I ask an electrician to join two plugs together - can I ask for a certificate from him certifying that what he has done is compliant?

A certificate is issued from the point of consumption to the point of supply. When it comes to additions, what constitutes that "point of supply" can get interesting.

If a problem arises on a small section of a circuit and I ask the electrician to certify just that section - Can this be done? - Or does the electrician now have have to look at all the fittings and goodies on the circuit and come up with a complete circuit certificate?

That looks like a pretty good question. At the very least the whole circuit is going to have to pass the metering tests. But I'm going to have to bounce that one past my wiremen (when I get back from holiday )

and distorts your sine wave worse than any other device...

Geez, murdoch. Where'd you get that result?

[Marq]

Thanks for your interest guys.

It seems that there is a lot of open ended areas in the electrical game. Looks like this industry needs some standards (or monitoring thereof) and proper accreditation along with my favourite subject of someone/body/board taking responsibility out there.

I remember having a ripple board in my my place in Randburg. Controlled by the municipality in peak times. Good question Murdock - what did happen to those and surly that would solve the current energy problems we are experiencing?

[murdock]

i was running tests in my workshop with my fluke 435 power quality analyser and that was one of the results...from numerous tests on different lamps...i also had a 5 kva generator on test to check frequency...sinewaves...power factor...harmonics...at least i dont have to take anybodies word for anything i run the tests... all my equipment has recording facities even my installation tester which is a fluke 1653...so nobody can tell i didnt get a reading the meter can't lie...i print out my COC straight from the 1653 with the sofware i have.

i read an article about the biggest postal service in USA was looking for a company which could carry out thermal imaging and power quality analysing in all their facilities...they had to get various companies involved and they say it was a logistic nightmare.

i decided a year ago to offer an all in one service to my customers...i offer them a completed package including a thermal audit...power quality audit...COC yearly audit to make sure their facility is up to standard i repair any defects and retest as soon as the repairs are done without having to pay another company a call back fee to retest...the problem is if the fault is not resolved then the finger pointing starts...the one person says the other hasnt done his work correctly as on...this way i find a fault i determine what the actuall cause of the fault by connecting the PQA to find the cause be it overloading...bad connections in the breaker etc...i fix the fault myself retest and send the report t the customer...no finger pointing all in one done.

i also do power audits to determine if your power supply is adequate to connect addition equipment or if you require a standby generator i can give a print out of the exact power consumption of your electrical installation.
i can check if you are being billed correctly because my equipment is class A (accurate to 0.01) meaning it can be used as evidence if required...i also have calibration certificates for all my equipment...etc...etc.

[murdock]

my apologies...class A is a whole lot of parameters and criteria which the meter has to pass not just the % accuracy.

[Dave A]

It seems that there is a lot of open ended areas in the electrical game.

It's actually quite disturbing.