The Electrical Certificate of Compliance explained

[ians]

What is a COC worth without the correct onsite supervision.

Again today as per a discussion...the lack of onsite supervision is the main cause of illegal COC's.

Until the department of labour employ suitably qualified staff to to carry out onsite inspections to make sure companies have suitably qualified staff to check work in progress and random checks on issued COC's...this industry will remain the joke of all trades.

I receive an email from the ECB today...to notify me that they are running a seminar and they do still exist...."REALLY" ...did you know it is a "CRIME" if you dont issue a COC for every single installation...my question ...when are they actually going to enforce the law...i keep hearing about these criminals...yet everyday i watch unskilled staff being dumped on site...read through issued COC's which are not worth the paper they are typed on...even watched a person carrying out an inspection report...repair and issue a COC for an illegal installation.

You make the customer responsible for the audit on the illegal COC...the installation will remain illegal (until they sell the property...then suddenly it becomes my problem because the customer cant understand why i refuse to issue a new coc) ...why because the new customer refuses to pay for an illegal installation to be checked at his cost...all i tell my customers to do is make sure they keep the original copy of the COC available for inspection if by some miracle one day someone actually arrives at the door to check if they have one...in the past they did have unskilled people doing their rounds...but had n idea if the piece of paper was legit or not.

[ians]

I dont know what is worse, me being a pirate contractor with a red master electrician certificate or a customer who uses "electricians" who hold up a board at builder warehouse.

I get asked to have a look at a quote some electrical company has done an inspection report. R10 000 worth of repairs. The customer cant understand why he now has to pay all this money to fix an electrical nightmare carried out by an electrician who had a sign indicating that he was an electrician who he found on the side of the road.

I DONT FEEL SORRY FOR PEOPLE WHO SELL THEIR HOUSE AND REALISE THAT CHEAPIE JOB DONE BY UNSKILLED PEOPLE HAVE TO BE FIXED BEFORE A COC CAN BE ISSUED. This includes electrical contractors registered with the ECA, ECB and any other organisation, who drop off semi and unskilled labour to carry out the work while they go surfing or playing golf or what ever else they do.

It is the property owners responsibility to make sure they use skilled people to do the job, otherwise dont squeal when you have a hefty repair bill to fix up shody workmanship.

[ians]

A question for all you bright sparks...

I get called to quote for a job which has had an inspection report done, big deal. I get the job to do the repairs.

The inspector bills the customer R800 for the inspection report. I dont see a problem with that, he walked around with a tester and did a visual inspection and submitted a quote to carry out the repairs which included another R800 to issue the COC, i also dont see a problem with that. It takes 45 minutes to fill out the COC document.

What i want to know...should the customer pay the inspector for his inspection if it is not complete?

Fair enough he did the inspection, however he did not submit a full detailed report of his findings with the test results for one thing and secondly he missed half the faults. For example he didnt mention in his "quote" (the inspection report) that ther ewas no earth on any of the plugs in the out building, there are 8 illegally wired lights in the garden, etc etc to many other things. I sit with a problem because now the customer has to pay an additional R10 000 to finish fixing all the other faults that i found doing my inspection report once i had completed the repairs listed.

Should the customer pay him or should the customer hold back payment and sue him for fraud or whatever The inspection report is incomplete.

[nasri]

hi ian

he should've done a detailed inspection with all findings not compliant, that said if you did your inspections with more details: basically he should return the money for not doing a detailed inspection using your one as proof?

[ians]

hi Ian

He should've done a detailed inspection with all findings not compliant that said if you did your inspections with more details: basically he should return the money for not doing a detailed inspection using your one as proof?

It is just another flaw in the inspection, testing and issuing of COC's.

The right way to do it...

The public would be made aware of the procedure, via public awareness platforms.

The inspector should inform the customer that the inspection report and the COC is not the same thing. This is the biggest problem in this process at the moment.

Test using the correct equipment and a visual inspection. Not a brief, quick look sees how you much you can screw the customer for, and because you only quoted R600 to carry out the inspection, hoping to nail the customer on the repairs.

A full report should be submitted which includes pictures of the faults, reading taken during the inspection and detailed list including a reference to the SANS regulations.

The inspectors should not be allowed to carry out the repairs. There should be 3 quotes submitted from registered companies to carry out the repairs.

The inspector who carried out the inspection report must return and check the repairs have been done right. Once everything is up to standard.

Once the property is cleared, a COC can be generated.

A few things I have noticed, the COC is too vague and additional pages are not submitted with the COC to cover the entire installation.

People make out like the COC is such a legal document that will put you in jail if not done correctly, yet there is absolutely no policing, no random checks, by suitably qualified people, with the correct qualification, to check they are filled in correctly.

If the COC is such an important document, why is there not a better document management system in place to monitor and at least do random checks? A system in place like engineers where you have to attend x amount of refresher courses. If amendments are sent out, the inspector should have x amount of days to attend a course or seminar to make sure they are up to date with the regulations. At least every 10 years an inspector should have to write a test to make sure they are capable of carrying out tests.

[Sparks]

Ian, the customer should pay for the poor inspection. He made a poor choice of electrician, it could have gone the other way too, a lot of contractors load their quotes.

The COC is an important document, but this is SA 2018. The government are making it easier for people to get employment or work for themselves. People are being given qualifications without even having a clue what they should know. It will only get worse. Municipal inspectors are history, the ombudsman is history. Students wreck varsities to lower pass requirement from 30 %. Already they do not know 70% . Nothing will improve.

The COC keeps getting changed and keeps failing. Incompetents are certified as competent. All you can do is keep your own nose clean.

[ians]

Ian, the customer should pay for the poor inspection. He made a poor choice of electrician, it could have gone the other way too, a lot of contractors load their quotes.

The COC is an important document, but this is SA 2018. The government are making it easier for people to get employment or work for themselves. People are being given qualifications without even having a clue what they should know. It will only get worse. Municipal inspectors are history, the ombudsman is history. Students wreck varsities to lower pass requirement from 30 %. Already they do not know 70% . Nothing will improve.

The COC keeps getting changed and keeps failing. Incompetents are certified as competent. All you can do is keep your own nose clean.

my point in the other thread...should'nt we have a body or organisation which stands up for the industry...even if it is at our cost...like the ECA are suppose to do (what you pay them to do)

[ians]

The project i am busy with has made me think of an idea...to offer the electrical engineer on site a service to check other contractors workmanship and COC's issued for a percentage of project total....and to now go back an check all work carried out on the site for the past 5 years....from massive generator installations...factory revamps in all 12 of the buildings on site.

As i do for some big companies...they call me in to sit in on meeting with electrical contractors when they believe the contractor is trying to baffle them with bullshyte...i just sit in the meeting as an observer and then issue a report. You know that saying i wish i could be a fly on the wall...that is exactly what i do...they have no idea who i am or why i am in the meeting....the last meeting cost the contractor a return trip with 3 weeks of repair work for 2 teams.

The catch is you need to be working for the customer and being paid by the customer...not the consultant or main contractor as we were in the hospital project.

[SeanM]

Evening All

I recently responded to a cable fault. The customer had renovations done and his main cable had faulted which is now under his foundation.

So I ran a new cable from the COCT meter box to the DB.

I then phoned COCT to cut their seals so I could connect they insisted on a COC?

I don't understand as a COC is from the DB (point of control)

[ians]

Evening All

I recently responded to a cable fault. The customer had renovations done and his main cable had faulted which is now under his foundation.

So I ran a new cable from the COCT meter box to the DB.

I then phoned COCT to cut their seals so I could connect they insisted on a COC?

I don't understand as a COC is from the DB (point of control)

I would request the COC for the building...once they have provided that COC...i would then attach my coc for the cable install only to the existing COC.

If they cant provide a coc for the electrical installation...then you will need to quote to carry out an inspection report and once that is done and the installation is up to standard then issue a full coc for the entire installation.

They "should" have a coc for the installation...considering they had alterations done...they could be trying to get a coc from you because they used the "builders electricians"....in that case i would refuse to issue a coc.

[GCE]

Hi Sean
Municipalities and Eskom are wanting to ensure that somebody responsible has installed the cable and will take responsibility if something goes wrong- The COC is not quite the correct form but they tend to use it as a tool to cover themselves.
I would ensure that section 3 comments is filled in to say that the coc covers the installation/replacement of the main cable from point of supply to point of control and fill in the readings once power is switched on.
To cover myself further , in section 3 comments, I would state that their is an existing COC in place or alternatively that I have notified the owner of his responsibility to obtain a COC for the complete installation - You could also state that you have submitted a quotation to test the complete installation and supply a list of faults and are awaiting go ahead.
To me, you would have then covered yourself against any possible come back

[SeanM]

Hi

Thank you for the responses it makes sense although we need anothet form I think.

[Andrea McCarthy]

We are having a bit of a discussion now. We all know that when a property gets sold a COC needs to be issued. Therefore, even if the house was built three years ago and is being sold now, any installation electrician can do the inspection and issue the COC. But SANS 10142 states you are not allowed to issue a COC if you have not done the work or was on site 80% of the time. I know on the COC you can tick off new installation or existing installation/alteration. But it seems to me that the section in the SANS 10142 regarding the issueing of COC's is a bit of a grey area. Your thoughts and opinions?

[GCE]

Hi Andrea

It is not really a grey area , but in typically SA fashion we tend to ignore regulations that do not suit us and then label them as grey .

To issue a COC, it needs to have been under general control of the person - There is no stipulation as to % of time spent on site -
[B]Definition of general control[/B] in relation to electrical installation work that is being carried out, includes instruction, guidance and supervision in respect of that work

According to SANS 10142 - Ed2 ( the wording was brought out in Dec 2003)
8 Verification and certification
NOTE In South Africa, it is a statutory requirement that every user or lessor of an
electrical installation shall have a valid Certificate of Compliance (CoC) for every
such installation. A CoC will only be valid when it is accompanied by a test report
in the format of the test report in 8.7

If we read the note, every property should have a COC and should therefore be available when carrying out a test and inspection for a renewal - The renewal would be seen as a supplementary COC and section 3 would state that it is a retest of the installation - If the COC is not available then the retesting should not be taking place until the COC is available as you may be running the risk of signing off on some pirate contractors work.

The grey area could come in when you are told that they have been in the house prior to 1992 and never had any work done , which is highly unlikely.You will easily pick up that the house is 3 years old and there should be an existing COC available. The user should produce the certificate for you as per OHSA

The OHSA , Electrical Installation regulations pretty much spell it out as pasted below .
Certificate of compliance
7. (1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (3), every user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall have a valid certificate of compliance for that installation in the form of Annexure 1, which shall be accompanied by a test report in the format approved by the chief inspector, in respect of every such electrical installation.
(2)
Subject to the provisions of subregulation (3), every user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall on request produce the certificate of compliance for that electrical installation to an inspector, a supplier or, subject to regulation 4(1), an approved inspection authority for electrical installations.
(3)
Subregulation (1) shall not apply to an electrical installation that existed prior to 23 October 1992, and where there was no change of ownership after 1 March 1994: Provided that, if any addition or alteration is effected to such an electrical installation, the user or lessor of the electrical installation, as the case may be, shall obtain a certificate of compliance for the whole electrical installation, whereafter the provisions of subregulation (1) shall be applicable to such electrical installation



The OHSA refers to new electrical installations being carried out under general control.Electrical installations prior do not have the stipulation as pasted below
Issuing of certificate of compliance
9. (1) No person other than a registered person may issue a certificate of compliance.
(2) A registered person may issue a certificate of compliance accompanied by the required test report only after having satisfied himself or herself by means of an inspection and test that
(a)
a new electrical installation complies with the provisions of regulation 5(1) and was carried out under his or her general control; or
(b)
an electrical installation which existed prior to the publication of the current edition of the health and safety standard incorporated into these Regulations in terms of regulation 5(1), complies with the general safety principles of such standard; or
(c)
an electrical installation referred to in paragraph (b), to which extensions or alterations have been effected, that
(i) the existing part of the electrical installation complies with the general safety principles of such standard and is reasonably safe, and
(ii) the extensions or alterations effected comply with the provisions of regulation 5(1) and were carried out under his or her general control.
(3)
If at any time prior to the issuing of a certificate of compliance any fault or defect is detected in any part of the electrical installation, the registered person shall refuse to issue such certificate until that fault or defect has been rectified: Provided that if such fault or defect in the opinion of the registered person constitutes an immediate danger to persons in a case where electricity is already supplied, he or she shall forthwith take steps to disconnect the supply to the circuit in which the fault or defect was detected and notify the chief inspector thereof.
(4)
Any person who undertakes to do electrical installation work shall ensure that a valid certificate of compliance is issued for that work.
(5)
No person may amend a certificate of compliance

[SeanM]

Greetings

There is a reason you indicate new or exciting as is you are issuing a COC on a new installation then once signed off you are saying everything is according to the regulations. On the other hand is it is an exciting installation then the general safety principles apply basically what you can see.