Geyser not on earth leakage

[Goobie]

I had to replace a faulty earth leakage this morning and realised that neither the stove nor the geyser is on the earth leakage. I fixed it by feeding the geyser's circuit breaker from the EL, but it trips the EL as soon as the CB is turned on.

It is an old house (from 1962) and the DB was brought up to spec when I purchased it 6 years ago. At that time the house still had its low pressure geyser. This old geyser has been disconnected six months ago and the electrical cabling has been extended by 5m to where a new geyser was installed. The new geyser is also controlled by a geyserwise unit.

My questions:
1. I've seen it discussed that it is ok for stoves to not be connected to EL. Is that the same for geysers, or do they have to be protected by EL?
2. could the geyserwise be the cause of the EL trip?

As soon as it cools down up there I want to start troubleshooting the problem. Apart from bypassing the geyserwise, what else should I check?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[Esurgeon]

Hi,

Your geyser unit must be protected by E/L. This is for shock prevention as water is a direct conductor for electricity. If the geyser is not connected to the E/L it is illegal and very unsafe for your family.

The trip problem is caused by a neutral to earth problem and your earth leakage tripping is protecting you from danger

Yes, they cause for the earth leakage tripping can be they geyser wise system but also check
1. The supply circuit to the geyser (especially the extension point between the old and new wire)
2. And check your element and thermostat

Good luck
Wouter

[bergie]

it may be unsafe,but its not illegal for the geyser to not be on earth leakage.most likely the element that has an earth fault.

[Leecatt]

1. I've seen it discussed that it is ok for stoves to not be connected to EL.

Thanks

Stoves:
I beg to differ. The following extract from the SANS 10142-1 2009 contradicts this

6.16.3.3.1 A stove designed to be a free-standing appliance rated above 16 A shall be connected through

a) a stove coupler which shall comply with SANS 60309-1/IEC 60309-1 (SABS IEC 60309-1) and of dimensions as given in SANS 337 (a
maximum of 45 A single-phase and 16 A per phase for three phase)
NOTE 1 Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a stove coupler is used.

1. Is that the same for geysers, or do they have to be protected by EL?

Thanks

Geysers:
If a geyser is mounted within Zones 1 or 2 in a bathroom then it too needs to be protected by earth leakage protection as indicated in table 7.1 of SANS 10142-1 2009

[Dave A]

Your geyser unit must be protected by E/L.

Only when in zone 1 or 2 as covered by Lee.

Geysers:
If a geyser is mounted within Zones 1 or 2 in a bathroom then it too needs to be protected by earth leakage protection as indicated in table 7.1 of SANS 10142-1 2009

However I disagree with Lee on his interpretation with this one:

Stoves:
I beg to differ. The following extract from the SANS 10142-1 2009 contradicts this

6.16.3.3.1 A stove designed to be a free-standing appliance rated above 16 A shall be connected through

a) a stove coupler which shall comply with SANS 60309-1/IEC 60309-1 (SABS IEC 60309-1) and of dimensions as given in SANS 337 (a
maximum of 45 A single-phase and 16 A per phase for three phase)
NOTE 1 Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a stove coupler is used.

I suggest this last line is only included to prevent confusing stove couplers with other forms of socket outlets that must be on earth leakage unit protection, and not to imply that all other forms of stove connections must be on earth leakage unit protection. If that was the intention, I suggest the framing of the stove section would have been "a stove must be on ELU except where it's connected via a stove coupler".

[Leecatt]

Only when in zone 1 or 2 as covered by Lee.



However I disagree with Lee on his interpretation with this one:


I suggest this last line is only included to prevent confusing stove couplers with other forms of socket outlets that must be on earth leakage unit protection, and not to imply that all other forms of stove connections must be on earth leakage unit protection. If that was the intention, I suggest the framing of the stove section would have been "a stove must be on ELU except where it's connected via a stove coupler".

Hi Dave, yes O agree with you. I have read further now and the following passage has clarified it:

6.16.3.2.3 A cooking appliance circuit may also supply one socket-outlet if
the rating of the socket-outlet does not exceed 16 A and if the following are
all contained in one control unit (see also 6.15.4.1): Amdt 5
a) the socket-outlet;
b) an earth leakage protection device including overcurrent protection for
protecting the socket-outlet; and
c) the switch-disconnector required for the cooking appliance (see
6.16.1).
NOTE The socket-outlet has to be protected against earth leakage so, unless the
protection device (see (b) above) is in the control unit, the entire cooking appliance
circuit has to be protected against earth leakage.

Sometimes its about what the SANS doesn't say rather than what it does say.

[Tato]

Looking for pdf-copy (or a CD) of SANS 10142-1

Stoves:
I beg to differ. The following extract from the SANS 10142-1 2009 contradicts this
... as indicated in table 7.1 of SANS 10142-1 2009

I was just wondering, as I am still looking for a pdf-copy of SANS 10142-1, does this document really have thousands of pages or hundreds of images???

What I can find on the Internet ranges from about 350mb to 1.5gb as a download.
Isn't it possible to convert it in a pdf-file with at most 2 digits of mb?

I am living on a farm and though I got a theoretical downstream bandwidth of up to 2mb (wireless), I cannot really download files that huge.

Maybe someone can sell me a second hand CD?

Thanks for your time.

[AndyD]

To be honest Tato, the regs is one thing I'd urge you to buy an original copy, that way you'll get the ammendments free when they're released. Although there's several unofficial copies up for grabs there's always the possibility that a version from an unknown source could be inaccurate or tampered with. I doubt you'll find a secondhand CD for sale and if your bandwidth is limited it won't even help if you persuade somebody to Dropbox or torrent a copy for you.

[Leecatt]

Rehashing an oldie

"Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a stove coupler is used.


I've been giving the above line a little more thought. Look at it from another angle:

Earth leakage protection is required for the stove circuit when a stove coupler is not used.

And then:

6.16.3.2.3 A cooking appliance circuit may also supply one socket-outlet if the rating of the socket-outlet does not exceed 16 A and if the following are
all contained in one control unit (see also 6.15.4.1): Amdt 5
a) the socket-outlet;
b) an earth leakage protection device including overcurrent protection for protecting the socket-outlet; and
c) the switch-disconnector required for the cooking appliance (see
6.16.1).
NOTE The socket-outlet has to be protected against earth leakage so, unless the
protection device (see (b) above) is in the control unit, the entire cooking appliance
circuit has to be protected against earth leakage.

I read all of this as follows: The stove has to be covered by earth leakage unless it is connected via a stove connector and furthermore if there is an unprotected socket outlet integrated into the stove circuit then the entire combined circuit must be protected by an earth leakage, stove coupler or not.

Thoughts on this please guys?

[Dave A]

Thoughts on this please guys?

You're going around in circles, Lee

You're taking the situation where the stove supply also supplies a socket-outlet, and then trying to extend that to where the stove supply does not also supply a socket-outlet - a situation which is covered prior to the clause you quote above.

The introduction of an earth leakage protection requirement arises from the presence of the socket-outlet.
(which I hasten to add is differentiated from a stove coupler).

[Sean Stark]

stoves and geyers need not be conected to the earth leakage unt.
when you conected the live wire to the earth leakage did you conect the neutral to the earth leakage aswell .this would cause it to trip when switched on

[ACEsterhuizen]

I see in the new 2017 regs that geysers now HAVE to be on Earth Leakage.

6.7.5 Earth leakage protection

6.7.5.1 Except as allowed in 6.7.5.5 and 7.10.1.6, non-auto-reclosing earth
leakage protection shall be provided

a) in a new installation for circuits that supply SANS 164-1 or SANS 164-2
type socket-outlets,

b) in an existing installation for all the circuits that supply socket-outlets
when any such circuit or circuits are rewired or extended.

NOTE It is recommended that earth leakage protection be installed in all circuits that
supply socket-outlets in an existing installation.

c) in circuits supplying water heaters.

[Sparks]

In a nutshell, the stove circuit is not required to have earth leakage protection unless the manufacturer request it and nowadays most do. When a stove is connected via socket outlet it obviously must have protection as with all socket outlets( besides dedicated). A stove connected directly through an isolator is not required to have earth leakage protection. The geyser is only required to have protection when, as mentioned, it is in zones 1/2 in the bathroom. The attached photo is of the unit mentioned in 6.16.2.3 which I came across during an inspection. These units must have earth leakage protection purely because of the socket outlet.

[ACEsterhuizen]

.....The geyser is only required to have protection when, as mentioned, it is in zones 1/2 in the bathroom. ....

Thanks Sparks, please help and point me to the regulation re the above.

My understanding is that the geyser must be protected, as per the General Safety Principles as in Clause 5: Fundamental Requirements,of sans 10142-2017 2nd edition, for all existing installations, regardless of their installation date, by an earth leakage, and if nuisance tripping occurs, by a separate earth leakage device.


5.2.3.4 Earth leakage protection shall not be used as an alternative
protective measure to those given in 5.2.3.2(a) and 5.2.3.2(b).

Earth leakage protection shall be considered an additional protective measure. (see also
6.7.5.)


6.7.5 Earth leakage protection

6.7.5.1 Except as allowed in 6.7.5.5 and 7.10.1.6, non-auto-reclosing earth
leakage protection shall be provided:


a) in a new installation for circuits that supply SANS 164-1 or SANS 164-2
type socket-outlets,

b) in an existing installation for all the circuits that supply socket-outlets
when any such circuit or circuits are rewired or extended.

NOTE It is recommended that earth leakage protection be installed in all circuits that
supply socket-outlets in an existing installation.

c) in circuits supplying water heaters (this does not appear in the previous edition 2009)


6.7.5.5 The following do not need earth leakage protection:

a) socket-outlets connected to a safety supply, but see 7.8.3.3 and 7.12;

b) a socket-outlet that complies with SANS 164-4 and that is intended only
for the connection of an appliance for critical application (such as
emergency lighting, a deep-freeze, a burglar alarm, data processing
equipment, or life-supporting equipment);

c) circuits that supply fixed socket-outlets positioned out of normal reach,
rated at less than 16 A and intended for the connection of luminaires (see
6.14.1.4); and

d) a stove coupler that complies with SANS 60309-1 and of dimensions as
given in SANS 337 (see 6.15.1.1.5).

[Sparks]

Thanks for that, I have not picked that change up yet.