220v Downlight DIY Installation

[msmoorad]

looking at the tone of the conversation here, this might not be the best place for me to ask this question but it seems that most of those who are best qualified to answer my questions are in/on this thread

damned if you, damned if you dont

anyways, let me go ahead....

im a trade tested plumber(for what thats worth)
ive recently been offered a chance to do maintenance/repairs/new installations for a large property management group

i was also told to include any other service that i would be able to offer the company in my company profile

i have a friend who is working now for over 4 years for an electrical contractor
ive seen him at work-he seems very competent to me
he says the boss lets him work on 3 phase & DB's etc

he has now also been selected by Ethekwini Municipality for their trainee electrician prog
this friend says i should also say i can provide electrical services as he will come with to do the work & then i can pay him later

what i want to know is

how much do electricians charge?
do they charge by the hour or by the job?

im going to get feedback from my friend but maybe you guys will advise me
please bear in mind that the electrical work that would be required would be nothing serious/heavy duty.

and, maybe i should not say this but again, let me go ahead...

aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
its all motivated by greed $$$

you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?

im not saying everyone is like this but...

[AndyD]

i have a friend who is working now for over 4 years for an electrical contractor
ive seen him at work-he seems very competent to me
he says the boss lets him work on 3 phase & DB's etc

he has now also been selected by Ethekwini Municipality for their trainee electrician prog
this friend says i should also say i can provide electrical services as he will come with to do the work & then i can pay him later

I'm assuming your friend isn't a qualified electrician so he's working under supervision at present. If he freelances then who is going to supervise him? Who will sign his work off? Who will issue the compliance certificates?

This is a dangerous game. If he's injured whist working on your contract or under the umbrella of your company or somebody is injured by an electrical installation he's worked on then these are the questions that will be asked...and depending on the severity of the incident quite possibly in court of law.

what i want to know is

how much do electricians charge?
do they charge by the hour or by the job?

im going to get feedback from my friend but maybe you guys will advise me
please bear in mind that the electrical work that would be required would be nothing serious/heavy duty.

I don't know what domestic electricians charge to be honest. I'm sure it would depend on the type of work and their location.

and, maybe i should not say this but again, let me go ahead...

aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
its all motivated by greed $$$

you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?

im not saying everyone is like this but...

I take exception to that last part. I suggest you look inward rather than outward before making accusations of protectionism and greed. If you knowingly take on an electrician who's not qualified in order to reduce overheads or increase your business then that would reek of reckless greed. It would also be you that 'could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?' to use your own wording.

When I read you post I wasn't sure if you were either deliberately trolling for an argument or whether you just knew damn well that what you're thinking about is taking a chance and you wondered how well or otherwise it would sit with others and whether it could be justified by your smoke and mirrors protectionism theory.

I can only strongly suggest you very carefully reconsider what you're suggesting and consider the possible outcomes and consequences.

The problem with apprentices and electricians mates is they're often exploited and used to perform the bulk of installation work. Yes they can install conduits and cables and sockets but more often than not they're not responsible for the testing and certifying. They're also not responsible for the original installation design and all these aspects of a job are equally, if not more important than the actuall installing.

[Leecatt]

i have a friend who is working now for over 4 years for an electrical contractor
ive seen him at work-he seems very competent to me
he says the boss lets him work on 3 phase & DB's etc

Your friend is not working as an electrical contractor unless he is registered with The Chief inspector as such. He is simply doing electrical work, hopefully under the supervision of another person who IS registered with the Chief Inspector as an electrical contractor, otherwise he is breaking the law.

aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
its all motivated by greed $$$

you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?

im not saying everyone is like this but...

We are not protecting our "trade secrets", the Law of South Africa is. We are highly qualified people who have undergone years of training in various field and have progressed beyond the qualifications of a normal electrician in order that our customers can sleep safely at night in the knowledge that they are not going to die because of any dangerous installations. And yes we make money from it, in much the same way as a doctor, an architect, a lawyer or any other professional person does, we have a skill and we sell it, not rocket science. I am in business to make money, not make friends or have a nice day simply to make money and offer a safe in exchange, reliable service, otherwise I would be employed by someone else and let them have all the headaches. If you see that as greed then so be it.

Electrical work is extremely dangerous at any level and will pose a threat to life if not done correctly, it is not a tap that simply leaks if neglected.

Should your friend become a qualified electrician and then comply with all the legislation required to do electrical work correctly, and legally, then he would be entitled to participate in this industry.

The Law of South Africa is very specific and I quote:

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS
Electrical contractor
6. (1) No person may do electrical installation work as an electrical contractor unless that person has been registered as an electrical contractor in terms of these Regulations.

Let me ask you a question, how would you feel if you were flying on a plane to Cape Town only to find your "electrical" friend posing as the pilot?
That's the situation many people find themselves in when hiring non electrically-qualified handymen.
I have seen houses burn to the ground because some non qualified person who "knew what he was doing" did not know the rules and therefore never followed them.
Electricity kills my friend and there are no second chances.

[Dave A]

and, maybe i should not say this but again, let me go ahead...

Actually, I'm pleased you did. Rather it's discussed openly and put to bed if possible than skulk in the shadows.

aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
its all motivated by greed $$$

you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?

im not saying everyone is like this but...

I've found this line of thinking pretty common among unqualified folk in other trades as well - perhaps you find it in the plumbing business too?

Any of these sound familiar?

• The job is a lot easier than the experts make it out to be.
• The dangers of doing it wrong are exaggerated.
• I don't need to be qualified to do this job - I know enough already (even when they've failed the exam! Surely that's a clue.)
• The people who are qualified make it more difficult to get qualified than the job actually requires.
• Their motive is to keep competition low and their prices high.

Let me share two thoughts in addition to what has already been said above by Andy and Lee:

1. I've lost count of the number of times in industry meetings that the fiercest supporters of people having to be properly qualified to do the job were previously just as vigourously saying just these sorts of things before they got qualified themselves.
2. There is only one thing scarier than a person who doesn't know what they're doing - it's when they don't know that they don't know what they're doing.

[msmoorad]

Dave

i accept & understand what u & others have said
but human nature being what it is....

its only obvious that once someone is qualified then they see things from the other side of the fence

with regard to my friend & who is going to check his work
as i said- its going to be light stuff- that i could also most probably do
like removing old light fitting & installing new ones
removing old plug points & installing new ones

but if its complex stuff like rewiring an entire DB
then we have another qualified electrician with whom my friend has worked before to come in
to ensure everythings OK

or if its something he is not sure about
we just wont do it- ill tell the company thats hiring me to please call someone else

it has happened before
we were called to see an electric gate motor
my friend told me he has no experience with this & is not familiar with the way its laid out/arranged
so we told the guy to call someone else

[Leecatt]

Dave

i accept & understand what u & others have said
but human nature being what it is....

its only obvious that once someone is qualified then they see things from the other side of the fence

with regard to my friend & who is going to check his work
as i said- its going to be light stuff- that i could also most probably do
like removing old light fitting & installing new ones
removing old plug points & installing new ones

but if its complex stuff like rewiring an entire DB
then we have another qualified electrician with whom my friend has worked before to come in
to ensure everythings OK

or if its something he is not sure about
we just wont do it- ill tell the company thats hiring me to please call someone else

it has happened before
we were called to see an electric gate motor
my friend told me he has no experience with this & is not familiar with the way its laid out/arranged
so we told the guy to call someone else

Anyone reading this should realise that this person is for real.
These are the people who sometimes arrive at your door after you have taken the cheapest quote you could find.
A non qualified person installing dangerous electrical equipment into your precious home and supervised by a plumber.
Sleep well tonight.

[msmoorad]

Anyone reading this should realise that this person is for real.
These are the people who sometimes arrive at your door after you have taken the cheapest quote you could find.
A non qualified person installing dangerous electrical equipment into your precious home and supervised by a plumber.
Sleep well tonight.

correction:
not supervised by a plumber- i know nothing about electrical work(except basics)

and hes not qualified but hes experienced
so, does that not count for anything?

see, its due to people like you that i say that youre just being protective n greedy
you know well that many aspects of the work you do can be done by many other "electricians" you pick off the street

yes, there are lots of things where you would def need a qualified & experienced person doing the job

let me ask you all this:
if im interested in working for this company long term
would i do anything reckless & dangerous which could cause damage to property & loss of life?

you make it seem as if its all going to be hit n run
that im going to disappear after doing the job

you think im just going to take a chance with anyone who knows nothing about electrical work?
and did i not say that we have a qualified electrician to come in and check up after were done ?

i know plumbing is not the same as electrical
but in my field as well, i know theres many things that anyone can do but i still charge more to do the same thing cos
im a "qualified plumber"

and its irritating when you give a quote only to learn the customer gave the job to the neighbours son cos he was prepared to do it much cheaper.

[Leecatt]

correction:
not supervised by a plumber- i know nothing about electrical work(except basics)

and hes not qualified but hes experienced
so, does that not count for anything?

see, its due to people like you that i say that youre just being protective n greedy
you know well that many aspects of the work you do can be done by many other "electricians" you pick off the street

yes, there are lots of things where you would def need a qualified & experienced person doing the job

let me ask you all this:
if im interested in working for this company long term
would i do anything reckless & dangerous which could cause damage to property & loss of life?

you make it seem as if its all going to be hit n run
that im going to disappear after doing the job

you think im just going to take a chance with anyone who knows nothing about electrical work?
and did i not say that we have a qualified electrician to come in and check up after were done ?

i know plumbing is not the same as electrical
but in my field as well, i know theres many things that anyone can do but i still charge more to do the same thing cos
im a "qualified plumber"

and its irritating when you give a quote only to learn the customer gave the job to the neighbours son cos he was prepared to do it much cheaper.

I rest my case, this guy is his own worst enemy.

[Dave A]

I had originally had this one in my list of things you hear often, but I decided not to include it at the time as it's actually a slightly different issue:

but in my field as well, i know theres many things that anyone can do but i still charge more to do the same thing cos
im a "qualified plumber"

Just because you're qualified? Or is it because when it comes to doing a job properly in a proper business where this is how you earn your keep and you can't fool yourself on the actual expenses, you know what the job really needs to be charged out at to cover everything?

Insurance, vehicle purchases, maintenance and replacement, payroll costs (in the case of the electrical contracting industry add the payroll costs to the bargaining council too), accounting costs, downtime costs, collection costs, bad debt, taxes....

All these indirect costs add up, and are often not factored in by the person doing the job "on the side." Frankly, indirect costs are often not factored in properly by many a start-up either, but they can't fool themselves for very long because they don't have another income stream to subsidise their bad costing and budgeting.

Here's another thought I think you should also consider -

Having a foot in multiple industries sounds great in theory, but it does come with its own special challenges. In my case if I'm providing electrical and pest control services to a client and the electricians mess up, I might end up losing my pest control contract where the guys have done nothing wrong.

You've got a perfectly legitimate plumbing business, and a solid client lined up for it. When they ask you for qualifications or if the client has a regulatory compliance audit (which I see is becoming increasingly popular nowadays), you're not going to have any problems producing all the required paperwork. All good so far.

Now you're talking about adding an electrical service to this same client. Would you be able to pass a regulatory compliance audit?

And critically - are you prepared to lose the plumbing business on offer if the client discovers there's a problem with the electrical side of things?

[msmoorad]

I had originally had this one in my list of things you hear often, but I decided not to include it at the time as it's actually a slightly different issue:


Just because you're qualified? Or is it because when it comes to doing a job properly in a proper business where this is how you earn your keep and you can't fool yourself on the actual expenses, you know what the job really needs to be charged out at to cover everything?

Insurance, vehicle purchases and maintenance, payroll costs (in the case of the electrical contracting industry add the payroll costs to the bargaining council too), accounting costs, downtime costs, taxes....

All these indirect costs add up, and are often not factored in by the person doing the job "on the side."

Here's another thought I think you should also consider -

Having a foot in multiple industries sounds great in theory, but it does come with its own special challenges. In my case if I'm providing electrical and pest control services to a client and the electricians mess up, I might end up losing my pest control contract where the guys have done nothing wrong.

You've got a perfectly legitimate plumbing business, and a solid client lined up for it. When they ask you for qualifications or if the client has a regulatory compliance audit (which I see is becoming increasingly popular nowadays), you're not going to have any problems producing all the required paperwork. All good so far.

Now you're talking about adding an electrical service to this same client. Would you be able to pass a regulatory compliance audit?

And critically - are you prepared to lose the plumbing business on offer if the client discovers there's a problem with the electrical side of things?

now, thats some intelligent questons
ive been going over that myself

i can show plumbing qualification but nothing for elctrical

what if
what if....

yes, maybe i'll tell them to just give me the plumbing side of it

[Dave A]

yes, maybe i'll tell them to just give me the plumbing side of it

At least secure it first and get a good track record down with the client. That way if you add anything to your business, you've already got a lot of credibility to help land the new business, or help some towards making sure a lapse in the one division isn't fatal to all the business. (In a nutshell, that's pretty much how I manage this particular risk).

My only other tip is if you do add another line one day, go all out to do it properly. Don't even try anything half-baked. Unfortunately the world tends to score more heavily on our weaknesses than our strengths, and a weak divsion can really drag down a strong one.

[Sparks]

much the same way as a doctor, an architect, a lawyer or any other professional person does, we have a skill and we sell it, not rocket science. .

While agreeing to mostly all you said I take exception to this statement. I wrote off over R10 000 due to me by a lawyer since December 2011. His wife is an Estate Agent. They were supposedly "friends". The money was supposed to come from a deceased estate, not even their own pockets. I have given up sending accounts. Not worth the aggravation. I am also trying to get money back from a dentist who ripped a friend off by performing a procedure without authorisation. She went there for a quote and ended up having to pay nearly R4000.

As Andy stated, I too suspect ulterior motives for this posting which is why I never bothered to reply but, as I am commenting now I might as well add that I have a list of clients as long as my arm who only pay for my materials and of course a few cups of coffee. The only people I overcharge are the ones who I know have done it to someone I know. At least my clients know that the work is done correctly.

[Leecatt]

While agreeing to mostly all you said I take exception to this statement. I wrote off over R10 000 due to me by a lawyer since December 2011. His wife is an Estate Agent. They were supposedly "friends". The money was supposed to come from a deceased estate, not even their own pockets. I have given up sending accounts. Not worth the aggravation. I am also trying to get money back from a dentist who ripped a friend off by performing a procedure without authorisation. She went there for a quote and ended up having to pay nearly R4000.

Hi Sparks, whilst acknowledging your bad luck I have to say that anyone who trusts a lawyer, or even worse an Estate agent, deserves all they get
This reminds me of a mate who bought a house up on Primrose Hill with a view overlooking the Bedforview City and all the way to Pretoria, very nice. However one snag was that there were Eskom power lines almost above his house and the veld in front posed a security risk.
"No problem" said the Estate Agent, " the power lines are coming down and the cables are getting buried in the mountain top (solid quartz all over) and the veld is being re zoned for a game park and is getting stocked with all sorts of wild animals". Well 25 years on and guess what...? One very big washing line and plenty of midnight shoppers.
Have a great day guys.