A culture of non-payment

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  • Dave A
    Site Caretaker

    • May 2006
    • 22803

    #1

    A culture of non-payment

    It is with some regret that I have to point out that there are those amongst us who habitually do not pay their bills. These people have been a scourge amongst well intentioned business owners for ages and I'm sure they consider us their legitimate prey.

    I have until now thought that the difficulty here was the cost of collection, but have also considered the cost of defence as a reasonable deterrent to a culture of non-payment becoming widespread. I'm afraid my understanding of the cost of defence has been rather rudely shattered.

    I have just suffered at the hands of a legal gambit that is so diabolical, I have serious concerns about describing it to you here. The legal fraternity is, I am very sure, well familiar with this gambit, as well as battle hardened business owners who have suffered under it.

    But no one talks about it. It has never been suggested by any legal counsel I have spoken to over some twenty years as a strategy or challenge I might use or face. I have never heard any business owner talk about it at any time when we've chatted about the pleasures of trying to prise what is owed to us from the hands of the reluctant to pay.

    And I can only think that it is because if everyone knew, the repercussions would be dire indeed. It would certainly be the end of once-off and casual credit at the very least. In fact, as best I can tell, the only viable defence against this gambit is to not provide any service or goods until they are fully paid for in advance, or to have a contract in place no weaker than what banks present us with when supplying us with a credit card.

    Either of which would certainly lead to a rather stressful shift in our entire economic structure.

    I have also determined that a few simple changes would remove this gambit from our lives forever. But to establish a new precedent that goes against established practice is not easy.

    And so I sit on the horns of a dilemma.

    Should I even publish the details of this gambit here? I want to warn fellow business owners of it, but it would also then fall in the hands of the unscrupulous but as yet unknowing.

    My thoughts so far:
    1. If I should publish it, I can do it in the Members area. Then at least, should we decide that it would be in the general interest that the thread be deleted, we won't have a copy of it sitting in a search engine cache somewhere.

    2. Possibly the best way to bring about the change needed to remove the threat of this gambit would be if there was massive use of it. Ironically, a widespread culture of non-payment that consistently used this gambit would probably be the best chance of bringing about the changes needed to end it forever.

    So - what are your thoughts? What should I and we do about this?
    Last edited by Dave A; 21-Mar-07, 08:54 AM.
    Participation is voluntary.

    Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services
  • duncan drennan
    Email problem

    • Jun 2006
    • 2642

    #2
    Originally posted by Dave A
    My thoughts so far:
    1. If I should publish it, I can do it in the Members area. Then at least, should we decide that it would be in the general interest that the thread be deleted, we won't have a copy of it sitting in a search engine cache somewhere.

    2. Possibly the best way to bring about the change needed to remove the threat of this gambit would be if there was massive use of it. Ironically, a widespread culture of non-payment that consistently used this gambit would probably be the best chance of bringing about the one change needed to end it forever.
    Do you think there is any chance that we, as a community, could cause a change to this practice? i.e. any chance we don't have to go the route of widespread non-payment?

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    • Dave A
      Site Caretaker

      • May 2006
      • 22803

      #3
      Originally posted by dsd
      Do you think there is any chance that we, as a community, could cause a change to this practice? i.e. any chance we don't have to go the route of widespread non-payment?
      We're fighting precedent. It's going to take something quite drastic to change it.
      Participation is voluntary.

      Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

      Comment

      • duncan drennan
        Email problem

        • Jun 2006
        • 2642

        #4
        Two suggestions, 1) conduct a conversation via PM with people who you feel can be trusted in this sensitive info, or 2) setup a forum for people who's identities can be confirmed.

        With both there is no guarantee that the info will not spread, although it is not a good idea for a business owner to spread info that may result in them not getting paid.

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        • Debbiedle
          Gold Member

          • Jun 2006
          • 561

          #5
          I'm not sure how you want to go about changing an entire nations mindset? Please do tell! Ditto on what dsd said as to how!
          Regards

          Debbie
          debbie@stafftraining.co.za

          From reception to management training, assertiveness, accountability or interviewing skills, we have a wide range of training workshops available for you!
          www.stafftraining.co.za

          Find us on
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          • Yvonne
            Silver Member

            • May 2006
            • 361

            #6
            Surely you are not responsible for other peoples moral values.

            Tell us any way you see fit! but please tell us. "Pre-warned is pre-armed".

            I presume that you might be referring to something in the Credit Control Act?

            Yvonne Symons

            Comment

            • Dave A
              Site Caretaker

              • May 2006
              • 22803

              #7
              Firstly, thank you everyone who has taken the time to add to this thread. With your input and some time to think it through, I've pretty well worked out what seems the best way to do this.
              Originally posted by Yvonne Symons
              "Pre-warned is pre-armed".
              I'm hoping to pre-warn and pre-arm.
              the only viable defence against this gambit is to not provide any service or goods until they are fully paid for in advance, or to have a contract in place no weaker than what banks present us with when supplying us with a credit card.
              I'm going to try to compile some standard clauses we should all include in our documentation and have the customer sign before we allow casual credit. And with it I'll release the details of the gambit; hopefully sufficient motivation for business owners to actually take the time to implement it within their business.

              In the meantime, it might be insightful to answer a couple of questions now if you have the time:

              Do you insist your client sign a contract before you commence providing goods/services, or a delivery note, or anything else?

              If yes, what sort of fine print is included in that documentation?
              Participation is voluntary.

              Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

              Comment

              • duncan drennan
                Email problem

                • Jun 2006
                • 2642

                #8
                Originally posted by Dave A
                Do you insist your client sign a contract before you commence providing goods/services, or a delivery note, or anything else?
                Sometimes I sign their document (or a modified version) and sometime we sign mine, but I have no consistent "terms of engagement." What the process that I'm going through at the moment has taught me is that it is time to have an attorney set up a good and fair contract for me to use.

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                • Debbiedle
                  Gold Member

                  • Jun 2006
                  • 561

                  #9
                  I don't believe I am the one to be helping here, as we have a strict cash upfront 21 days in advance policy! It changed my life!
                  Regards

                  Debbie
                  debbie@stafftraining.co.za

                  From reception to management training, assertiveness, accountability or interviewing skills, we have a wide range of training workshops available for you!
                  www.stafftraining.co.za

                  Find us on
                  Facebook

                  Comment

                  • Dave A
                    Site Caretaker

                    • May 2006
                    • 22803

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Debbiedle
                    I don't believe I am the one to be helping here, as we have a strict cash upfront 21 days in advance policy! It changed my life!
                    Way to go, Debbie
                    Participation is voluntary.

                    Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

                    Comment

                    • Yvonne
                      Silver Member

                      • May 2006
                      • 361

                      #11
                      I have to confess that our company operates on a Pre-authorisation form, but this hardly has any "credit" information, other than contact details, and names of contact person for accounts. It is more a "provision of information" regarding the correct identification and instructing us to carry out the work.

                      We have discussed a specific "credit information" form taking all the requirements of the credit act into account, but so far have not done anything.
                      Due to the type of business we operate it is not feasible to do a credit check on a one off payment of approx R4,000. Where possible we attempt to get paid on completion. I was discussing this with our directors over the weekend, and came to the conclusion that we might be forced to make use of a credit bureau. I was told that they charge as much as 5% of total accounts receivable?
                      We don't clear that much profit on turnover as it is, and a price increase to cover any additional costs is not feasible.
                      So perhaps we have to accept the financial exposure! at this point we are not sure of the best course of action.

                      Yvonne Symons

                      Comment

                      • Dave A
                        Site Caretaker

                        • May 2006
                        • 22803

                        #12
                        I think many of us are in the same position. My thoughts of what needs to be covered at this point are:

                        Identification
                        Full name and ID number of person signing
                        Registered name and registration number of legal entity if representing another entity (company/cc)
                        Nominated domicilium citandi et executandi (need English translation)

                        Authorisation
                        Signatory confirms authority to sign on behalf of legal entity

                        Debt recovery issues
                        Proof of debt
                        Service of notices
                        Consent to summary judgement in the event of debtor failing to make payment as per agreed terms
                        (hints).
                        Interest on overdue amounts
                        Debtor liable for all legal and collection costs on an attorney client scale.

                        From a process point of view, I have an instruction form that must be completed by the client before we commence any work. I just want to fix the fine print so that legal collection after failure to pay is a really simple process.
                        Participation is voluntary.

                        Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

                        Comment

                        • Yvonne
                          Silver Member

                          • May 2006
                          • 361

                          #13
                          Small business owners frequently “fly by the seat of their pants” when it comes to credit control, and yet this is one of the most likely reasons for a small business’s financial failure.

                          We are in a niche market and generally our total monthly exposure is spread across a wide range of clients, we have been able to manage our bad debt risk by controlling 30 days from invoice terms.

                          There has been a slow change in our client base to a higher exposure, and we now feel that we need to be more professional in our handling of our credit control.

                          I have been told that it is possible to obtain a report when a credit application is originally considered, but the real requirement is notification if a company has “changes” in its financial affairs.

                          Is it worth paying for credit reports? Are they accurate? is fair warning given timeously?

                          How do the majority of small business owners handle their credit control?

                          Yvonne

                          Comment

                          • Marq
                            Platinum Member

                            • May 2006
                            • 1297

                            #14
                            I found in the past that credit reports were just confirmation of stuff that one already knows. The information is usually old and the quality dubious.

                            The best info usually comes from references and keeping your ears to the ground. Keeping close contact and going with gut feel is still the best.

                            Make sure your risk is spread and you are not open in any one area. Any large deals should have some homework done. Besides getting more refs, check the company's details at cipro. I am not sure if one can still get a bank report worth anything still and a check at the credit bureaus for judgements and legal stuff should be obtained.

                            The best deal of course is cash up front, but if you can get a large deposit or some form of guarantee then thats good.
                            The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.
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                            • Jacob Zuma
                              Full Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 49

                              #15
                              For such a tiny part time business that I run I only see cash and hardly have any contract. I admit however that I once rendered my services to EThekwini Municipality and I was afraid to wait for payment but nonetheless there was no deliquency on that.

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