Contractor hourly rate

[Justloadit]

My wife works for a company and earns twice what i do She does help were she can.

Ians, you gonna have to grow some very thick skin, and cite yourself up, to immediately say "NO I CAN ONLY DO IT ONCE PAYMENT IS RECEIVED" or "SORRY SIR I CAN NOT CONTINUE UNTIL YOUR ACCOUNT IS UP TO DATE", once payment is received, your next statement will be "SORRY SIR< BUT OUR COMPANY POLICY HAS CHANGED AND WE NO LONGER ENTERTAIN OR HAVE ACCOUNTS AND WORK STRICTLY ON A COD BASIS< WITH A DEPOSIT UP FRONT FOR MATERIALS".

I only have 3 accounts now, who are excellent payers, and have never questioned my price or work ethic. I bend over backwards for them, because they are always on time with their payments, and are reasonable customers when something goes wrong. The rest are COD with deposits when it is a special and I have to buy out raw materials I would normally not use.

[mosescapetown]

Hi again ians.

I am well pleased to hear that you found a good accountant. Its one of the MOST important things for any business.

If i may I would like to comment on some of the things that was noted during this thread. I feel some of them needs more mention or attention...

1- Ian you said that you suck at advertising yourself and running the business side of things but you excel in your trade. This is exactly why you are good in one and not the other. In my experience (and those of many big businessman) tradesman find it very hard to be businessman and businessman struggle to be excellent tradesman. The reason being that it is 2 different kinds of reasoning to solve the problems they each face. I was a tradesman in my first business and this caused me to loose that business. I was really good at what i did especially complex switchgear and control systems and was proud of it, but my admin/accounting lacked horribly and thus i lost it all. Fortunately for me i met a fantastic mentor (Mr Ginsberg) who started grooming me for real business. The lesson i learned is not that i was stupid at doing business in my first attempt i simply needed to employ/contract someone for my admin/accounting and get teams to help me work to free myself up more for management. Today i try to not work in my businesses but rather on them. starting up you don't always have a choice but always keep your goal as trying to work yourself out of a job and not into it. if that makes sense.

we each have to choose firstly what we like.. then what we want to be... You cannot excel in something you hate so no point in managing business if it kills your joy... be a great electrician rather and get an accountant , buddy, wife to manage admin for you. this will ensure great job satisfaction and great service and this equals happy clients and more profit. if you don't wanna be a big business man then don't try to operate and advertize yourself as one. there is great need in the market for trustworthy tradesman. the choice can only be made by you.

2- If you (like me) find that you like your trade but have real passion for business then you must start educating yourself and make the mindset shift to think more like a project manager and less like the tradesman with the tool in the hand and later again shift to standing completely outside the work circle and manage from outside not within. this will take years as you really gonna find it hard to reprogram a good artisan that believes in his hands. his quite stubborn...

If you do decide to go for a bigger business rather than the one man show approach then you must get your legal and structural setup in your business right first. Get info, read good books, talk to lawyers and accountants. not ex government accountants but business and tax accountants. not normal lawyers but business lawyers. Study the law about business and debt. its invaluable information and helps you to ask the right questions when you meet the professionals. Why debt (NCA) you ask? this will help you talk to bank managers/investors and understand what they need and even before then structure your own cash-flow in the form they like to see it...


3- Wynn made good point ... the opportunity you have to manufacture something for a market that will need it more and more might just be they way forward for you financially. you can start small in manufacturing if you have a second business fueling the start-up in the beginning. Advertizing is a must. You might not be good at it but it does not mean it is hard or that expensive. I started an internet marketing company with no clients (but myself) in the beginning for the sole purpose of learning how to do advertizing. getting websites and domains and stuff going is not hard (in-mail me if interested in how) Point is you must use what tools are out there to promote your company/business. Coke is the biggest brand in the world for one reason only. They make crappy cold drinks but they have the biggest add budget/campaign in the world. the success of the business is NOT about how good you are, but how well you are known. (now try convince the tradesman in you of that and see how his pride rises)

Sorry getting carried away but i love business and i WANT SA businessman to SUCCEED and do well. the future of our nation depends on businesses for jobs.

Summary... find out what you want... educate yourself for what you want... gear your business to achieve the goal you want... let the world out there know what you are...

NS... sounds to me that you have been given a second change on a new season ians. now decide, adapt to new world and may the next 25 years be twice as much fun as the last 25 years.. good luck to you.

[Sparks]

Good advice Moses, the same applies to me, however, being the stubborn SOB that I am who will sign on the dotted line, I need to know first-hand that it is in order, so even though I have been toying with the idea of expanding, I am too full of crap to just hand over the responsibility to someone I do not know. I get a lot of job satisfaction because I know everything is safe. I have one ad on Google and am snowed under with work. Concentrating mainly on COC's because there just is not as much time anymore for other work, I have a reputation among agents and transferring attorneys which has them waiting for COCs rather than go elsewhere. They don't want comebacks. Unfortunately the seller has sold his house and does not want to fork out any money so prefers to pay an exorbitant administration fee for me having to wait until transfer before being paid. Nowadays the banks do not consider a bond until a COC is in place so it has to be done before the time where previously I could schedule it according to when the documents are lodged which gave me 10 days to do it.

[Dieman]

Hi
I asked a qualified CPT plumber who assisted me in various other plumbing and non plumbing works in the past to replace a faulty electrical plug in my flat.
He claimed to have slightly extended the burnt wire, used a connector and replaced the plug. The entire job was done in about 15 minutes. The charge for the work is R750 (R250 for material and R500 for labour). Is this fair given that the work was outside the scope of this trade? The same plumber charged R650 to repair a faulty geyser valve.

[Dave A]

Is this fair given that the work was outside the scope of this trade? The same plumber charged R650 to repair a faulty geyser valve.

Strange world we live in. I would have thought the question would be about getting a plumber to do an electrician's work.
(Would you get an electrician to do a plumbing repair?
Would the electrician do it?)

But no - it's about the rate charged.
OK. So what's the thinking here? The rate the plumber should charge should be less than his/her normal rate because they're operating outside of their trade?
Well, none of their contributing costs have changed, so why should their hourly rate change?

[HR Solutions]

Strange world we live in. I would have thought the question would be about getting a plumber to do an electrician's work.
(Would you get an electrician to do a plumbing repair?
Would the electrician do it?)

But no - it's about the rate charged.
OK. So what's the thinking here? The rate the plumber should charge should be less than his/her normal rate because they're operating outside of their trade?
Well, none of their contributing costs have changed, so why should their hourly rate change?

I agree and the fact is he did work for u that u were not prepared to do or couldn't do. You do not have to be qualified to change a plug.

[AndyD]

I don't see the charges as unreasonable and I'm also interested that you infer he should be charging less because the work isn't his core business.

I'm reading between the lines he replaced the socket rather than the plug but I might be wrong....

If the wiring was burned at the back of the socket then almost certainly the socket itself was damaged which in turn often causes damage to any plugs that are inserted into it. It's very rare that I replace a damaged socket without replacing at least one plug on an appliance that's also been overheated.

[Sparks]

In my experience plumbers know little to nothing about electricity. I hope for the sake of your family that the correct thickness of wire was used, that the correct polarity has been maintained and that the terminations are secure. Any one of these items can cause electrocution and/or fire. Having had a plumber do it is grounds for your insurance company to refuse payment should your house burn down. Heaven forbid that one of your children get electrocuted. You were prepared to let the plumber do it so don't complain about how much he charges. The work is beyond his expertise. Rather spend your time praying that everything is right.

[ians]

Wow it is the middle of 2019 "already".

A few things have changed...not my rate...they went up slightly ...but many other things have changed.

Lost R 10 000 because the accountant who did my books previously... retired and disappeared with the R 10 k (was suppose to get everything up to date to hand over)

I finally after all these years (28) received my first tax clearance certificate...(had to sell one vehicle to pay the outstanding balance) lost another R38 k getting someone else to sort out the mess the other accountant made of my books.

Dumped "all" the bad paying customers...kept the good customers and found a few better paying customers...who dont whine about the bill all the time...but rather just want the job done right.

What blows my mind is those bad paying customers are still trying to get me to go back and work for them...really.

Two things i no longer tolerate in my business...people who speak to me like i am one of their employees who they have absolutely no respect...and slow payers.

[ians]

Lets talk about electrical contractors hourly rates.

What would you regard as a reasonable rate...an average rate for a company which has a bakkie with a team (sparky and assistant)

Hourly rates would vary...

Domestic...R 500 per hour (easy access no frills)

Commercial...R800 per hour (more difficult access ...having to use service access and out of trading times and have to deal with the public during operating hours)

Industrial...1200 per hour ( the list is too long...but to give you an idea...induction before you even visit the site...medical clearances ...tool talks every morning before you even lift a tool...as mentioned the list is just tooo long...you get the idea)

Travelling per km ...R6.50 per km (makes no difference whether you are driving to a house or a building...the petrol and running cost is still becoming one of the biggest overheads in a business)

I am keen to hear what everyone thinks...contractors and customers who feel we they are getting a good deal or being ripped off.

However because the customers are not aware of the recommended rate issued by the electrical industrial council ...maybe someone could attach a copy of the latest rates to show everyone what they should be paying...to give people an idea of the correct rate...including all the fees contractors are required to pay if registered.

Two things i have noticed recently...people using social media platforms to promote their side line business (moonlighting) in the evenings and weekends.

The other is unregistered people advertising cheap rates R 150 - 250 per hour some even per day on places like market place...with pictures of projects they are busy with or completed.

So why is it such a bad thing ?

[Blurock]

The world is regulated by standards. We use standard in our life every day; from your cell phone to the water in your tap to the electricity in your home. Road signs, engines, accounting, printing, packaging, food, just about anything that you can think of. (Think ISO, SABS, ICASA, IEEE etc).
The air you put into your tires is measured. The fuel you put into your car has to conform to certified specifications. A doctor has to use a calibrated syringe to inject the right volume of medication. All instruments of weight or measurement have to be calibrated to ensure that the correct standards are being followed.

If you use non-calibrated instruments, you may have the incorrect tire pressure or your car may not perform due to the incorrect fuel. Or you may die because the doctor injected the wrong dose! So many things can go wrong if we do not follow the rules.

Why then would you use an unqualified guy to do work that can have very damaging consequences to your family or business?
I have learnt to pay what is due as the consequences for not following the rules are always more expensive!

[ians]

Why then would you use an unqualified guy to do work that can have very damaging consequences to your family or business?
I have learnt to pay what is due as the consequences for not following the rules are always more expensive!

We say this and people do use Registered qualified tradesmen ...and then we have a power dip in the factory where i was working yesterday (twice...2 x approx 1-2 second dips) and it blows the crap out of the entire electrical installation...that 2 second dip caused enough damage to the electronic components that most of the damage was visible...all the CNC machines had to be restarted...the occupation sensors all went on the blink...thank goodness i had installed a pure sine wave inverter which is used to support the important electronics...like the server PCs...telephone system...all the computers...which brings me to the use of registered contractors.

A couple of weeks ago there was a 12 ft wire fence...from floor to top electric fence installed by a well know company which advertises anti climb ...anti cut fencing ...well the interesting part is the 1.5 million rand installation installed around the complex ...proved to be a bit of a waste...they climbed the fence jumped over and entered the factory in the early evening...(also note the gates have 24 hr security) now they have had to raise the electric fence another 6 rungs at a huge cost...but anyway this is not about the money wasted on the fencing.

The security lighting also proved to be a bit of a flop...dark spots everywhere...so the complex managing agent (wont mention their name as i dont have anything good to say about them either) send one of their many preferred suppliers (i have had to deal with 3 of their preferred suppliers all i am gona say is ...WOW not good) they decide to add flood lights on the side of the building and connect it to our factory...the fact the "electrician" spent the entire time sitting in his vehicle on the laptop isn't the issue as maybe his team might have had the correct qualification to carry out the work...i didnt check...we have this dip and i notice all the reception lights are on...i switch all the light switches off...the reception lights...down lights and a few other lights stay on...so i go switch off the lighting circuit breakers...wait a couple seconds and reset...so what is the problem...it seems the electrical contractor has somehow bypassed all the lights some how to get his day/night switch for the flood light to work do i call these people back or do i just fix the problem myself.

while i am on a roll here...

first preferred supplier...the electrical contractor which did the COC ...one f the many problem i have found...he installed 150 mm long screws into the DB where the wiring looms go ...right through the loom ...it blew a 800 breaker in the sub station...ther ewer emany other issues a story for another day.

The second...was given the task of checking that my installation was done correctly...he couldnt find anything wrong...but i did point out numerous issues which were not repaired when the previous "inspector" issued the COC...he indicated that he would attend to them...still waiting...when asked why he didnt bring any equipment to carry out the tests and inspection...i was told he just wanted to get a feel of who was responsible for the installation and decide...either he was just too lazy to do the inspection or just wanted to bill the managing agent for his chat with me.

now the third ...a simple job like connecting a day night switch to the building electrics...cant even get that right.

[Bodie]

We say this and people do use Registered qualified tradesmen ...and then we have a power dip in the factory where i was working yesterday (twice...2 x approx 1-2 second dips) and it blows the crap out of the entire electrical installation...that 2 second dip caused enough damage to the electronic components that most of the damage was visible...all the CNC machines had to be restarted...the occupation sensors all went on the blink...thank goodness i had installed a pure sine wave inverter which is used to support the important electronics...like the server PCs...telephone system...all the computers...which brings me to the use of registered contractors.

A couple of weeks ago there was a 12 ft wire fence...from floor to top electric fence installed by a well know company which advertises anti climb ...anti cut fencing ...well the interesting part is the 1.5 million rand installation installed around the complex ...proved to be a bit of a waste...they climbed the fence jumped over and entered the factory in the early evening...(also note the gates have 24 hr security) now they have had to raise the electric fence another 6 rungs at a huge cost...but anyway this is not about the money wasted on the fencing.

The security lighting also proved to be a bit of a flop...dark spots everywhere...so the complex managing agent (wont mention their name as i dont have anything good to say about them either) send one of their many preferred suppliers (i have had to deal with 3 of their preferred suppliers all i am gona say is ...WOW not good) they decide to add flood lights on the side of the building and connect it to our factory...the fact the "electrician" spent the entire time sitting in his vehicle on the laptop isn't the issue as maybe his team might have had the correct qualification to carry out the work...i didnt check...we have this dip and i notice all the reception lights are on...i switch all the light switches off...the reception lights...down lights and a few other lights stay on...so i go switch off the lighting circuit breakers...wait a couple seconds and reset...so what is the problem...it seems the electrical contractor has somehow bypassed all the lights some how to get his day/night switch for the flood light to work do i call these people back or do i just fix the problem myself.

while i am on a roll here...

first preferred supplier...the electrical contractor which did the COC ...one f the many problem i have found...he installed 150 mm long screws into the DB where the wiring looms go ...right through the loom ...it blew a 800 breaker in the sub station...ther ewer emany other issues a story for another day.

The second...was given the task of checking that my installation was done correctly...he couldnt find anything wrong...but i did point out numerous issues which were not repaired when the previous "inspector" issued the COC...he indicated that he would attend to them...still waiting...when asked why he didnt bring any equipment to carry out the tests and inspection...i was told he just wanted to get a feel of who was responsible for the installation and decide...either he was just too lazy to do the inspection or just wanted to bill the managing agent for his chat with me.

now the third ...a simple job like connecting a day night switch to the building electrics...cant even get that right.

I FEEL YOUR PAIN - There are contractors out there who do not belong in the electrical profession at all.

You installed an inverter with UPS capability I presume?

Imagine having to work with contractors that are appointed because they comply with the BBBEE specifications out out by government departments?

At the first briefing the established and older contractors can be easily identifiable by the vehicles they drive, the cloths they wear and the sensible phones they use.
They the Versace wearing, Rolex sporting, Gucci shoed, Latest Disco driving crowd.
They invariably have no clue as to what the industry is about, ask *payment* questions only (technical a bit beyond their skill levels) and carry on about the projects they are involved with.

Now when BBBEE compliance is required, this is the crowd that get awarded the contracts - usually at about 45 to 75% more than the average quotes submitted.

A visit to site after the project has commenced is usually shocking!!

Anybody else in this game?

[Bodie]

first out = put
They - The

I should not type when I get riled up by this topic ...

[Blurock]

Borrowed from other group, but a must Read story!!!!!
A customer asked me how much it cost to make a table....
I answered him: R1500
He said: So expensive for this job?
I asked: How much do you think it would cost you?
He answers me: R800 maximum... That's a pretty simple job right? !"
- For R800 I invite you to do it yourself.
- But.... I don't know how to.
- For R800 I'll teach you how to. So besides saving you R700, you'll get the knowledge for the next time you want
- It seemed right to him and he agreed.
- But to get started: you need tools: A table saw, a planer, a top, dormants, etc...
- But I don't have all these equipment and I can't buy all of these for one job.
- Well then for another R250 more I'll rent my stuff to you so you can do it.
- Okay, he says.
- Okay! Tuesday I'm waiting for you to start doing this work
- But I can't on Tuesday I only have time today.
- I'm sorry, but I'm only available Tuesday to teach you and lend you my stuff. Other days are busy with other customers.
- Okay! That means I'm going to have to sacrifice my Tuesday, give up my tasks.
- I forgot. To do your job yourself, you also have to pay for the nonproductive factors.
- That is? What is this?"
- Bureaucratic, tax, vat, security, insurance, fuel etc.
- Oh no!... But to accomplish these tasks, I'm going to spend more money and waste a lot of time!
- Do you have them? You can do it to me before?"
- Okay!
- I'll make you all the material you need. Truck loading is done Monday evening or Tuesday morning you'll have to come by 6 loading the truck. Don't forget to be on time to avoid traffic jams and be on time
- At 6??? Nope! Too early for me! I used to getting up later.
...
- You know, I've been thinking. Y ' all better get the job done. I'd rather pay you the R1500. If I had to, it wouldn't be perfect and it would cost me a lot more.
When you pay for a job, especially handcrafted, you pay not only for the material used, but also:
- Knowledge
- Experience
- Study
- Tools
- Services
- Time to go
- punctuality
- Accountability
- Patents
- Sacrifices
- Safety and security
- Payment of tax obligations
No one can denigrate other people's work by judging prices.
Only by knowing all the elements necessary for the production of a certain work can you estimate the actual cost.
I did not write this dialogue, but am sharing it to support craftsmen and entrepreneurs.