Do contracts require witnesses?

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  • Mike C
    Diamond Member

    • Apr 2012
    • 2891

    #1

    Do contracts require witnesses?

    Hi to all the legal boffs.

    I know that the law requires some contracts (such as a will and a marriage) to be signed by two witnesses.

    But do other contracts - such as a loan or employment contract or a business agreement need to be signed by witnesses?

    I have read that the purpose of witnesses only really comes into play if the person who signed the contract says that they did so under duress or claim that they did not sign ... and generally the witnesses are then untraceable as no other information appears other than their signatures ... which kind of makes it moot.
    No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted. - Aesop "The Lion and the Mouse"
  • Houses4Rent
    Gold Member

    • Mar 2014
    • 803

    #2
    We sign mandates and leases also with witnesses, but my wife does all that without the other perty being present. It has never been challenged (even in eviction proceedings) as you said its totally useless as nobody can decipher any signatures. I am sure one could sign as Mickey Mouse or XXX and it will be ok.
    So if in doubt put a witness line in and nobody can complain about missing witnesses later.
    Houses4Rent
    "We treat your investment as we treat our own"
    marc@houses4rent.co.za www.houses4rent.co.za
    083-3115551
    Global Residential Property Investor / Specialized Letting Agent & Property Manager

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    • desA
      Platinum Member

      • Jan 2010
      • 1023

      #3
      Please ensure that each contract is witnessed by two witnesses. They also need to initial each & every page in the lower right hand side.

      A very real reason for this is to prevent contract forgery. I know about this first-hand! It happens - even in large public companies - believe you me.
      In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

      Comment

      • Houses4Rent
        Gold Member

        • Mar 2014
        • 803

        #4
        We have one witness who does not initial each page. I had 2 evictions in 7 years and I had no problems to have these leases recognised as legally valid.
        Houses4Rent
        "We treat your investment as we treat our own"
        marc@houses4rent.co.za www.houses4rent.co.za
        083-3115551
        Global Residential Property Investor / Specialized Letting Agent & Property Manager

        Comment

        • desA
          Platinum Member

          • Jan 2010
          • 1023

          #5
          ^ You may want to check that with your attorney. The time may come when you wish you had had the two witnesses, as outlined.
          In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

          Comment

          • sterne.law@gmail.com
            Platinum Member

            • Oct 2009
            • 1332

            #6
            The purpose is not for legal compliance but for evidence purposes where a dispute arises.
            Anthony Sterne

            www.acumenholdings.co.za
            DISCLAIMER The above is merely a comment in discussion form and an open public arena. It does not constitute a legal opinion or professional advice in any manner or form.

            Comment

            • desA
              Platinum Member

              • Jan 2010
              • 1023

              #7
              ^ So, zero, one, or two witnesses required/recommended?
              In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

              Comment

              • Blurock
                Diamond Member

                • May 2010
                • 4203

                #8
                Originally posted by Houses4Rent
                We sign mandates and leases also with witnesses, but my wife does all that without the other perty being present. It has never been challenged (even in eviction proceedings) as you said its totally useless as nobody can decipher any signatures. I am sure one could sign as Mickey Mouse or XXX and it will be ok.
                So if in doubt put a witness line in and nobody can complain about missing witnesses later.
                You may only realise your folly when you get challenged in court. When you need proof of evidence - see that it is there. Compliance means that you do the right things right. Rules are there to protect you, not just to challenge you.

                I have seen many clever guys who challenged the system, come short when they least expected it.
                Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

                Comment

                • Beancounter
                  Bronze Member

                  • Oct 2011
                  • 140

                  #9
                  It is not a legal requirement for certain contracts to be signed and initialled by witnesses. Verbal agreements are also binding. It becomes a problem when the contract is being disputed or a party claims that they didn't sign wilfully. Refer law of contract.
                  No good deed shall go unpunished - Oscar Wilde

                  Comment

                  • sterne.law@gmail.com
                    Platinum Member

                    • Oct 2009
                    • 1332

                    #10
                    It makes sense to get a witnesses ID number.
                    However given our technology today. I actually just video record the handing over of documents or signatures.
                    Anthony Sterne

                    www.acumenholdings.co.za
                    DISCLAIMER The above is merely a comment in discussion form and an open public arena. It does not constitute a legal opinion or professional advice in any manner or form.

                    Comment

                    • neliusmit
                      Junior Member
                      • May 2014
                      • 19

                      #11
                      Witnesses??

                      Originally posted by Mike C
                      Hi to all the legal boffs.

                      I know that the law requires some contracts (such as a will and a marriage) to be signed by two witnesses.

                      But do other contracts - such as a loan or employment contract or a business agreement need to be signed by witnesses?

                      I have read that the purpose of witnesses only really comes into play if the person who signed the contract says that they did so under duress or claim that they did not sign ... and generally the witnesses are then untraceable as no other information appears other than their signatures ... which kind of makes it moot.
                      It is recommended that the witness will also print their names under their signatures. I make provision in my contracts for 2 witnesses together with their physical addresses, cell no, email and fax number should I wish to contact them in case of a dispute arising.

                      Comment

                      • Blurock
                        Diamond Member

                        • May 2010
                        • 4203

                        #12
                        When it comes to the Law, rather wear belt and braces. Make the process of providing proof as easy as possible. There are just too many loopholes and clever attorneys to risk taking a chance.
                        Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

                        Comment

                        • Houses4Rent
                          Gold Member

                          • Mar 2014
                          • 803

                          #13
                          I know Blurock, but after hundreds of unchallenged contracts I am happy that our approach works.
                          Houses4Rent
                          "We treat your investment as we treat our own"
                          marc@houses4rent.co.za www.houses4rent.co.za
                          083-3115551
                          Global Residential Property Investor / Specialized Letting Agent & Property Manager

                          Comment

                          • Dave A
                            Site Caretaker

                            • May 2006
                            • 22803

                            #14
                            This discussion brings a thought to mind:

                            What is the legal status of a contract that legally requires a Revenue Stamp, but no Revenue Stamp has been affixed to the contract?
                            Participation is voluntary.

                            Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

                            Comment

                            • Houses4Rent
                              Gold Member

                              • Mar 2014
                              • 803

                              #15
                              Hi Dave

                              I would think its invalid then. I am so glad stamp duty was abolished for leases some years back as it would cause us major headaches.
                              Houses4Rent
                              "We treat your investment as we treat our own"
                              marc@houses4rent.co.za www.houses4rent.co.za
                              083-3115551
                              Global Residential Property Investor / Specialized Letting Agent & Property Manager

                              Comment

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