SEO and CMS

[IMHO]

Your Ukaremu buddies actually have a very poor backlink profile. In regards to SEO, they are only propagating due to lack of competition. However they do have absolutely beautiful rooms etc at their premises, so I can imagine that word of mouth is one of their strongest agents.

No, I am referring to their ranking on Google adwords. They are always between 1 and 3. ALWAYS! Lekkeslaap again get a lot of display ads shown.

Why?

What are we talking about in Rands? You can PM me if you do not want to show it here.

[TheElectrician]

Do you like the design and the functionality? This can be changed but I need your opinion, as ultimately it is yours that counts... I can also add features like an online booking form etc. Also, you will be showing up in about 6 - 8 weeks I would guess, as I checked the actual strength of keywords you are targeting, and it is very low. So that is an encouraging sign. How about you give me a price you are happy with, and we negotiate from there. I am not getting you on the front page for 'bank' or 'medical aid' and don't expect R300k or anything. (However, if you are offering ...)

RE the keywords, they have set their bids a lot higher than the Google asking price. Obviously Google wants more cash, so makes it the most expensive ppc show first. This is an extraordinary waste of money, as if they are in such a low competed word, they could technically hire me once off, and then never have to pay Google again. Also, I don't know if you have come across the stats in your independent research, but in 2009 they did a test using high speed cameras and focused on peoples eyes when they were Googling something. The camera then created a heat map on the screen to show where most people look and click. The ads only get about 9% of traffic, with the pages ranked 1,2 and 3 getting over 55%. If you have used adwords in the past, I'm sure you can relate to spending more than actually bringing in on some days, and sometimes it isn't worth the gamble.

[IMHO]

Do you like the design and the functionality? This can be changed but I need your opinion, as ultimately it is yours that counts... I can also add features like an online booking form etc.

Are we talking mascarene. If so, no, I am happy as it is. Online booking is something I steer away from on purpose. Our booking system is too flexible for that.

Also, you will be showing up in about 6 - 8 weeks I would guess,

Mascarene is already hitting page one, on occasion, so why the delay? Or are you talking about the domain change? I would have rather taken the domain out with my host, Afrihost, as it is now going to be all sorts of drama.

Just something about Mascarene. I use it mainly as an overflow, when Housemartin is fully booked. That enables me to keep expenses down. I do not need staff, I switch of geysers and all non essentials and things like that. When I get an overflow or big booking, I open Mascarene up.

as I checked the actual strength of keywords you are targeting, and it is very low. So that is an encouraging sign.

I do not understand what you mean. I am not running a campaign on it and I am not targeting any keywords on puppose. I guess I did use them though, for when I do start a campaign. You say the strength is very low. Suppose I am not understanding again. You do not get a stronger phrase than 'klerksdorp accommodation' and 'accommodation klerksdorp'. I am sure I used those all over.

How about you give me a price you are happy with, and we negotiate from there. I am not getting you on the front page for 'bank' or 'medical aid' and don't expect R300k or anything. (However, if you are offering ...)

Nope. You set your price. I want you to break down all the items you want to implement into a quantity. I will then divide the price by that qty and get an item price. I am not giving you access to the site back-end. You tell me, one item at a time, what to do and I implement it. I then pay you for that item once it is actioned, or it goes on your bill, as you wish.

RE the keywords, they have set their bids a lot higher than the Google asking price. Obviously Google wants more cash, so makes it the most expensive ppc show first. This is an extraordinary waste of money, as if they are in such a low competed word, they could technically hire me once off, and then never have to pay Google again.

So here you talk ukarimo and adwords. I do not think that is what is happening. They are a small, hidden away guesthouse and not great looking from the outside. I doubt they will be spending big money on adwords. Lekkeslaap maybe yes. In any case, my bids is dbl or triple page one est bid and it does not have the effect.

Also, I don't know if you have come across the stats in your independent research, but in 2009 they did a test using high speed cameras and focused on peoples eyes when they were Googling something. The camera then created a heat map on the screen to show where most people look and click. The ads only get about 9% of traffic, with the pages ranked 1,2 and 3 getting over 55%. If you have used adwords in the past, I'm sure you can relate to spending more than actually bringing in on some days, and sometimes it isn't worth the gamble.

It comes and goes. I know I can not do without adwords. The clicks is there, the conversions not so much. So, people click on different sites and then I lose them. I am working on that on my new site. It will be responsive and geared towards mobile devices. I see yours is as well.
http://quirktools dot com/screenfly/#u=http%3A//www.plumber-bros.co.za/&w=360&h=640&a=38&s=1

[Mark Atkinson]

Oh boy, I love threads like this. Here we go!

There's too much here for me to dissect in one go, so I'm going to have a go at cherry-picking some of the things that stand out most to me.

Fair enough reply, I did however provide the option to check my claims through Moz.com, which is the worlds leading SEO analysis tool.

Why thank you, I don't mind if I do.

You were very quick to claim great gradings through Moz's tools, but you don't point out which keywords you're supposedly optimising well for.

Before I nitpick, I would just like to point out that an A grading from Moz on your pages' on-site optimisation does not make you an SEO expert, nor does it guarantee you a top ranking in Google, in 3 months or ever. I've seen F-graded pages rank better for terms than A-graded pages. In fact, judging performance based on the Moz page grading tool is so distorted that I don't even use that tool anymore. This is more because under-optimisation is still better than over-optimisation, which can totally destroy your performance. Unfortunately Moz does not measure over-optimisation.

So for all your claims of having the most well optimised sites in the industry, I found the following in about 2 minutes: (On the Plumbing Bros website, Electrician Bros seems similar)

- You have multiple H1 tags! How on earth is Google supposed to distinguish what your page is about when your heading structure suggests that everything on a page is of equal importance? Matt Cutts has been cited on multiple occasions condemning the use of more than one H1 tag.

- Your home page has two meta descriptions.

- Despite having said yourself in a post that the Meta Keywords tag provides zero benefit to your website (and can cause more harm than good, actually), you have implemented the tag on both your websites.

- The content on your website, for the most part, addresses problems and not solutions. Considering people looking for a plumber are generally going to be looking for solutions, your content is sub-optimal. As an example: You have a page addressing "Burst Geysers" as opposed to "Burst Geyser repairs" which is more likely to be searched for. The lack of specificity is going to kill a new website - being vague/trying to rank for broader terms is not the solution when you're trying to get your initial rankings up.

- You used Artisteer to create the theme. Artisteer produces some of the most bloated code I've ever seen and is buggy as all hell. I'd rather use Wordpress' default theme than use Artisteer, and I hate the default Wordpress theme.

- I haven't even begun to address conversion optimisation here, but I would like to just point out that it's almost non-existent on the sites you pointed us to. Getting traffic to a site is all fine and dandy, but if it's the wrong traffic or if you don't guide them through a funnel to the point that they contact you, then your efforts are wasted. As the saying goes, I'd rather have 1000 customers than 1 million views.

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Now, let's talk a bit about duplicate content. Surely, as a professional SEO, you know that duplicate content is a bad thing? Assuming you do, then I have the following questions:

1. Why is your own website, webvitality.co.za almost a word-for-word copy of your site in the UK, webvitality.co.uk? I hope you don't lean on the "they're in different regions, it doesn't matter" argument, because you wouldn't be more wrong. Google doesn't ignore duplicate content from different hemispheres, countries or regions. Duplicate content is duplicate content is duplicate content and you're damaging the chances for both websites, but more so the newer one, by having a direct copy of the UK version.

2. Why would you create a site that competes directly with IMHO's current site without no-indexing it? I looked in the robots file as well as for a meta tag that conveys a no-index rule, so if I missed it, I'm sorry. But by doing this (I'm assuming to try and solicit business from IMHO) you have now created yet another thing for him to compete with. Having two sites about the same thing dilutes the results for both. He doesn't win, his competitors do.

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I'd like to spend some time clearing up some misguided information now.

-My business name has the keyword people will Google, as does my URL. I also have pages like /Johannesburg /Pretoria etc, as if someone types in 'plumber Durban', the page http://www.plumber-bros.co.za/durban will have their search directly in the URL.
-My slogan has a keyword in it (Don't sleep with a drip, call a PLUMBER).
-My logo is text, not an image (Besides the spanner). It is also an H1 (First heading), so Google knows it is a plumbing website, and 'plumber' is the most important thing here.
-I have many links to social media.
-I offer other forms of relevant and informative advice that would drive traffic from other sources http://www.plumber-bros.co.za/bro-code.
-My content is keyword rich (The word plumber is on my home page alone more than 14 times).
-My physical page names are all keyword rich.

It almost feels as though you learned SEO 5-6 years ago and then didn't bother doing any reading on the subject thereafter.

1. A keyword-heavy URL is fast becoming more of a liability than an asset. Google is ranking brands over keyword-rich domains. Sure, there are such domains that still perform well, but it's by no means a very important factor anymore.

2.It's all very well having a keyword in your slogan and a logo that is text, but what on earth is that doing for your brand? People don't remember text logos and the benefit you gain from it (if any) is not worth the sacrifice you're making. I offer web design, e-commerce, social media management, Facebook app development, SEO, PPC Campaign management, email marketing, graphic design, branding & consulting. Should I throw all of that into my slogan to rank better?

The trick is to have your keyword anywhere between 4-6% of your text in well written and well constructed sentences.

No! Oh heavens, no! You simply cannot be an advocate of specific keyword density in 2013/14! This will do you way more harm than good. I've never counted counted keywords in my copy since the day I started my own business and I rank perfectly well for several of my target keywords. Please, write about your topic in a natural manner that is useful to your audience. Keyword density means nothing.

Here's an infographic I did: http://redgiantdesign.co.za/rg-desig...fographic.html
It has over 20,000 visits this year and is on the first page for a number of search terms. There's very little text on the page and the words "Joomla" and Wordpress" only form 1-2% of the post. I'm willing to bet that I could remove the words Joomla and Wordpress completely from the body of text completely and still rank the same. Seriously, there are way more important things to be concentrating on than keyword density.

Lose the sub pages. It is miles better to create LINKS within your actual site to other pages. Make every page on your website a main page, and hide them off the menu. Even your own website is giving you links, and you need to utilize this as best you can. Having your website link internally well and aesthetically / functionally can be challenging, but it is definitely worth the reward.

What? Hide them off the menu? Why would Google ever want somebody to sacrifice user-friendly navigation for the sake of performing better in their search engine? Internal linking is important yes, but seeing as your menu is a form of internal linking there is absolutely no reason why you should hide pages off your menu. (Other than to improve the user-friendliness of your site by only displaying relevant items to them)
The key is to make sure that any important page on your site is accessible within 2 levels of your landing page. (So 2 clicks away) This is achieved via sitemaps, menus and strong internal linking.

Your rel=canonical: You will see if you go to your site, your bar will not have a www. before your domain name, but on Google it will if you look for your business directly. This means you don't have a rel=canonical on your website, which is the main reason you aren't ranking high. A rooky mistake if it is your first time building a website (I did it too), but really hard to fix once you have buggered it up.

I think the Youtube video on rel=canonical may have misguided you on this a little bit.

A canonical tag is not the optimal solution for a www./non-www. duplicate content issue. A 301 redirect is. What IMHO should be doing is redirecting one of the versions to the other, so as to consolidate the two completely and remove any duplications. By adding a rel=canonical tag to try and solve this, you're saying "it's okay that I have two versions of my website with the same content, but I prefer this one."

Don't get me wrong, rel=canonical tags are great and you could probably incorporate them site-wide if you really want to, but they definitely aren't exactly the same thing as a proper permanent redirect.

Since you seem to like Moz a lot (who doesn't), here's an article to back all this up and enlighten you further on the use of rel=canonical.

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It may seem like I'm being a little ruthless here, but let's dwell on why I'm so decidedly pedantic about this by being constructive. You say no other plumbing site in SA can match your optimisation. Here's one that I found that is absolutely killing their SEO: http://www.plumbersjohannesburg.com/

They have multiple no. 1 and 2 rankings for absolutely brilliant money-words (keywords that are more likely to convert) such as "Plumber Johannesburg", "Geyser repairs Johannesburg" and "Kitchen Renovations Johannesburg."

Let's quickly explore why they're doing so well:

- Their pages are all very well optimised. Very good title tag usage, proper heading structure/hierarchy, good meta data, etc.

- They have fantastic call-to-actions and an easily accessible contact form on every landing page, so I can imagine they're getting a pretty darn good conversion rate.

- They have loads of great content that addresses solutions to people's problems but, more importantly, they have a page filled with good content dedicated to each of these key problems/solutions. This, coupled with their solid internal linking, allows them to rank for a range of great keywords. You'll notice that it's not their home page ranking for all the keywords (except "Plumber Johannesburg" and variations), it's all those dedicated landing pages that they've set up.

- They've secured themselves a Google+ local business listing, which goes a long way to helping them rank for all those local terms. They also do a good job of optimising for even more specific locations by having unique content for different areas in JHB, all on separate landing pages.

Man, these guys are doing such a good job with their SEO it actually makes my day to see it. It's not difficult to do, it's raw "do the big things that matter" SEO. Nothing cute about it, it's just effective. And that's all you need in a field that's not very competitive folks. Plumbers, electricians, guest houses in Klerksdorp, etc. - These are all areas where the business owners can excel in online by doing some of their own SEO. You don't need to be paying thousands of Rands a month to somebody to do it for you. A little guidance here and there, sure, but that's all you need in addition to some of your time. The return will be worth it.

@TheElectrician - I appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic, but it pains me to see information being spread that has the potential to harm a website more than help it. Many of your points are right on the money, but teaching outdated SEO to folks who don't know better is recipe for disaster. At the very least, appreciate the fact that if you're going to invite criticism, you can bet your bottom dollar that somebody like me is going to call you out on false claims, particularly in an industry as volatile and tricky as SEO/inbound marketing.

Well, this was fun. Looking forward to the replies.

[Mark Atkinson]

As previously mentioned, there are nearly 300 things Google looks for, and Youtube will tell you about 30 which are probably true, and a standard SEO expert in SA (judging by the quality of sites in SA) in the region of 40. I'm not going to give you my magic number though I'm just a classy guy like that...

Things Google Looks For

Sorry, I'm not a classy guy.

[vieome]

I always wonder, hypothetical scenario, 100 companies (same line of business) fighting to be number 1 on Google, 100 SEO masters, who wins?

On another note, I often notice that Google is in a sense customizing my Google search I use on my computer, as at times when I search for same product from different computer I get different results. Another point if I Google a product today, a few days later if I visit an un-related site I often see the advertising was for a product I have Goggled. And that brings to mind a question, How does one optimize their site for a search engine which is continually trying to optimize itself?

Now if a given company sells 50 products, can the SEO expert get it to be number one for each product search, or do they find one product, or one keyword which is then used as the selling point for good SEO skills?
I understand they are many tools, tricks and tips for Optimization, and some do work, but in my humble opinion, the GOD Google eventually gets to decide, and if that GOD is after advertising revenue, then there are no guarantees.

case in point 2 sites exactly the same, keywords, products, exactly same optimizing skills put to each who ranks number one. Only difference being name of site.

[IMHO]

case in point 2 sites exactly the same, keywords, products, exactly same optimizing skills put to each who ranks number one. Only difference being name of site.

Well, then money gets to be the deciding factor. Also, if I throw enough money at the problem, I will be number 1. If I want to beat Wiki, i do not know...

The whole idea of SEO, is to minimise the money spend.

[vieome]

I agree, the point I was trying to make, it cost to Hire a SEO expert, so not much saving. If you going to spend better to spend on the GOD himself, than on expert SEO company that claim they can defeat the GOD. To get to the point more clearly, one only has to google SEO company, say for instance if you were looking for a company to do SEO for your site , google brings up about 56000 results, let's argue, that is the top SEO companies coming up(the cream of the crop), which you would expect cause it is a service they offer. I am sure many of the members here will have a good laugh at who number one is on google.

[vieome]

Just an addition , say for your site, your optimization would before guest house in klerksdorp
But it is easy to notice that the Google algorithm in a search for those keywords ranks sites better if they instead use Klerksdorp Guest Houses as the optimizer keyword on they site they are ranked better by Google in searches for guest house in Klerksdorp. What I know about SEO one can write on the back of a stamp.

When you
INPUT in search guest house in klerksdorp
You would expect Google to search exactly like that but instead the algorithm is looking for

Klerksdorp Guest Houses.

So add that to your site and see if it improves your page rank.


Edit : Corrected some spelling errors by simple right clicking on words underlined in red

[IMHO]

So add that to your site and see if it improves your page rank.

We do about 60 variants of all the combinations of Klerksdorp, Guesthouse, B&B, Lodge, Hotel, Accommodation

Then you also have a thing called broad match. So Google also include other weird searches, in stead of matching a specific phrase. You can change that so it would match only specific phrases.

[vieome]

We do about 60 variants of all the combinations of Klerksdorp, Guesthouse, B&B, Lodge, Hotel, Accommodation

I hear you, based on the body of SEO knowledge that says it should be so? I am saying ignore all that and simply add Klerksdorp Guest Houses to the front page of your site. We seek a complicated equation to exploit google, but sometimes google is looking for a simple answer.

[TheElectrician]

What’s up Mark,

Right, I do intend this in the nicest possible way, and it is all banter and in the spirit of learning (No need to pr0n link each other) but you really need to proof read. The contradictions you have made in that post are actually quite disturbing to read. This is normal for your faction of SEO, where the proof tends to come from another source, and no independent thought has been intertwined with your regurgitated results. You are really clued up bud, but you are arguing another man’s cause…

I’m going to start with the Moz thing you brought up in the beginning, and I will give you the satisfaction of letting you know targeted keywords and results:

www.plumber-bros.co.za (Plumber) (A)
www.electrician-bros.co.za (Electrician) (A)
www.plumber-bros.co.za/bloemfontein (Plumber Bloemfontein) (A)
www.plumber-bros.co.za/cape-town (Plumber Cape Town) (A)
www.plumber-bros.co.za/durban (Plumber Durban) (A)
www.plumber-bros.co.za/johannesburg (Plumber Johannesburg) (A)
www.plumber-bros.co.za/pretoria (Plumber Pretoria) (A)
www.electrician-bros.co.za/bloemfontein (Electrician Bloemfontein) (A)
www.electrician-bros.co.za/cape-town (Electrician Cape Town) (A)
www.electrician-bros.co.za/durban (Electrician Durban) (A)
www.electrician-bros.co.za/johannesburg (Electrician Johannesburg) (A)
www.electrician-bros.co.za/pretoria (<Electrician Pretoria) (A)

(12 A graded pages for highly Googled phrases, excluding every page in the BC etc.)

While I fully understand that this doesn’t quantify me as an SEO expert as I can cite the most popular SEO forum on the web, I would like you to bear in mind your statement regarding ‘I have seen F-graded pages rank better than A-graded pages’. Also, could you please give me an example of this, and for a search term that actually generates traffic too please? The only instance where this is remotely possible in my mind is for two reasons:

- Bad links and trolls / comments on the ‘A page’, but the ‘F Page’ wouldn’t top the entire search, so long as they all had the same authority / AR.
-A super high level domain posts a wank article but references a search term, and is allowed to propagate over a long duration of time.

If you are correct with this assumption, then it makes the idea of ripping my metatags and H1 nonsensical? I’m going to go hop from one thing to another if that’s fine, just to try wrap my answers up as quick as possible. Let’s go to my sites now, which you rightfully ripped a new one into. I didn’t build the Web Vitality one, it sort of got thrust on me. They are doing me a favour over there, and I haven’t even paid much attention to it. As far as I am actually concerned anyway, it doesn’t matter what your site is like as an SEO company, so long as you sort your clients out. Let people focus on their shit, I would rather focus on clients. I have done that and then some more. I made it pretty clear from the beginning that I don’t build websites, and these 2 were my first instances (Well second, I didn’t rel=canonical the first batch). Sure they need some heavy cleaning up in regards to the H1 tags etc, but I thought even an F page can outrank an A page? My speciality however lies in the process of link building and revenue returns from the actual sites. Creating ideas based around the internet. This is where the imagination of SEO lies and where I find my passion. Places where there are no ultimately defined formulas and everything is a game. I have looked at some of your clients’ websites you have done SEO for (tricky to find), and they don’t have anywhere near a link profile that is able to keep them out of reach if a major competitor starts knocking. Your backlinks are also very predictable, and I can only imagine you thinking of the task as a chore rather than fun? In fact you say absolutely nothing in regards to my comments on links and link building? I am sorry if that is true, it is actually the best part of SEO. Ironically also the most important part as you pointed out with your link to the Moz guide (Which is a best guess, not actually anything tangible. We don’t know 100% for sure for anyone who read that).

You also mention the other keywords I went for, and state quite a few things without what appears to be any premeditated thought? If I have a national plumbing / electrician company, surely Google will pick that up as a brand when the time comes for us to get the updates and the new algorithms take place here? I know there are key words in it, but what company doesn’t? Google has no way of quantifying how many of the traffic sources are actually paying customers. I have my sites generating different types of traffic for different things. Just a quick one I’ll throw out there, but I have found one of the best ways to generate vast amounts of traffic for a site without sourcing a link is through Gumtree. Simply advertise a vacancy and tell people to apply through your website (Which is located in the image). As far as SEs could pick up, I could have just played a radio ad or something. I’ve got loads of little tricks like this. There are so many ways to generate traffic without links, (Almost like creating ‘corporate awareness’ for the brand, as people tend to Google my site directly rather than type it in in their URL search bar). The website doesn’t need to make money today, you can play games and wait it out. It puts pressure on the fun. A similar approach MZ took with Facebook (Obviously I’m not comparing the sites, just the strategies behind getting them to grow). I think you suffer what many people in the industry do, and you put the Google on a pedestal, and focus too much on immediate gratification. The whole point of SEO is to effectively work with, but ultimately outsmart the SEs.

My personal project in regards to the P&E sites, I think the idea of combining what is now and what will be to create a power house website is actually quite clever. I say will be, as you do know that the different Google domains actually run different versions of the algorithm? What you are reading about what is happening in US and UK, isn’t happening here. A prime example you can test yourself right now is the new Hummingbird update. It has allegedly been out in the States for 6 weeks, and I have seen some of the awesome interactive features it brings with the search bar. Combined with this is the ability to understand pronouns from related searches and process if I am looking for a business or an answer. Guess what? Google.co.za doesn’t have this yet, and as such we aren’t in this update yet, and still playing by old rules. I’m sure if you go through a Proxy you will see this. Further combined with this, the actual people who use Google.co.za. I know this sounds strange to some readers, but most South Africans actually don’t know how to effectively search Google, and are often still giving it keywords. In America, the average search term has gone up to over 5 words, while in SA it is under 4. Sometimes it is very easy to forget how backwards a nation we are in regards to the internet etc. (For those who don’t know, Google actually supply a 1GB/s line to domestic homes for around $50 a month in the US). While people in USA and that are saying rather provide a solution as that is what people look for, that is area specific. This is where thought and reason come into play, and people can use ideas that are successful abroad and localize them. The whole thing relies on imagination, you got to remember that. Be original and break the rules in a clever way. That is how I have helped my clients, and it actually what is going to be needed when the industry starts to saturate, like it will in the next 3-4 years.

In regards to your site IMHO, I will explain most parts to the best of my knowledge, but Mark is going to have to step in on one little details, and you can check from there? When I looked at your current site, there are a few things

[IMHO]

Kyle, I did explain that I do not want to improve on that site at this stage. Please stop doing things I did not request. I am doing my own thing. I am obviously not giving everything I do through on here. Thanks.

[expresplumbers24]

It depends on the SEO techniques that you are using to top rank in Google. You must choose an expert SEO to do the job for you because they really know on how to boost your page in Google.

[Dave A]

Sometimes it's fascinating coming back to a thread a few years later. In this case, the electrician-bros website is gone, and the plumber-bros website sells e-liquids for e-cigarettes.

Go figure