Best bank for Small businesses

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  • Miro Bagrov
    Bronze Member

    • Dec 2011
    • 152

    #16
    I work in the banking industry and also have my own business.

    As a businessperson your way of thinking should lead to different goals than consumers. I think as a small business you need to change banks when it suits you and not based on loyalty of any kind.
    We should all bank (as business people) where:
    1. costs are low or non-existent
    2. earn highest return on money forwarded (called interest)

    A basic principle:
    The bank is your servant, they are there to make you money.

    You would not employ an employee if he did not help make you an income first which exceeds his salary. Neither should you hire a bank if it does not somehow provide you with a positive income. An example - you earn R400 interest in your current account structure. However, fees amount to R600 for the same period. This is a loss - consider finding another bank, or not using a bank. The only reason why income should be kept electronically is somehow the interest earned covers and exceeds the expenses paid.
    Many banks have structured their accounts like hooks. To lure you in, then eat you. An example: Why does a business account have higher fees than an individual's? If that is a case, then use a personal account (assuming no other expenses are involved).

    To see how to save money you need to consider how you receive income and pay expenses, and where you keep the money in between:
    1. Cash Income.
    2. Electronic Income.
    3. Online Income.
    4. Electronic Expenses
    5. Cash Expenses
    6. Money is kept cash
    7. Money is kept electronically

    Expenses:
    Electronic expenses are debit orders to the bank, or electronic transfers attract a fee of R3.5 - R4.5 or a monthly fee.
    Cash expenses are a cleaver way of avoiding all fees, because you are effectively passing on the banking fee on to the recipient. However, this is only true if 1. There are no withdrawal fees, and 2. no other fees for carrying cash.

    If we receive income cash there may be no need for a bank account. Or maybe there is. Some might see banking fees as the premium for safety of cash (the transfer of physical holding risk for cash) to an intermediary.
    Cash Income is free. However the deposit of cash attracts deposit fees (either 2-3% of the value or a monthly charge) .. Using cash to pay expenses is free, (because as I mentioned we pass the cost to someone else).
    Electronic Income: a result from trading via bank cards, receiving payments through debit orders and electronic payments. Electronic transfers do not usually attract costs. Swiping cards do however and in fact are the reason petrol stations no longer want to sell airtime via Point Of Sale machines.

    Holding Cash Electronically the time the money spends lying around in the account should earn interest. The interest on can vary between 0 - 5% - this changes as the repo rates change.

    Here are rough steps to follow:
    1. Decide your profile:
    What type of income does your business receive. What type of expenses do you pay.

    2. Calculate your average monthly receipts and your payments.
    Example: I receive R220 electronically around 40 orders a month and pay 5 accounts electronically.

    4. Calculate your current bank charges.

    5. Identify other banks, and other bank accounts.
    Using your known incomes and expenses. Knowledge is power and knowing the fee structures of all banks and all accounts is the highest power.

    6. Pick lowest cost for your profile.

    7. Align your banking to your profile to minimise cost and maximise returns.
    Change banks or account types.

    Some Strategies to eliminate all bank costs or most bank costs:

    Account Hedging:
    Imagine that your bank account pays R300 in fees a month - you could cancel this out with an interest earning deposit which earns R300 interest a month. This hypothetically brings your monthly cost to 0. This does not always work out or is not always practical however. It ties up a lot of cash. It could be suitable for businesses who do not earn income every month and are too exposed to the bank fees. In most cases you would do better just using another account to ring the overall cost down to R50 a month and use this technique to wipe out the R50 cost and bring it to R0.

    Account Re-Structure:
    Move money out of current, cheque and savings accounts which is not needed now, or is not needed for more than a month and place it into investment accounts with maturities which match the expense.

    Move Banks:
    Find another bank, move away from the big 4. Look for the 5,6,7... etc. Smaller banks have more competitive attitudes.

    Move Accounts:
    Use another account which matches your income and expenses. Many businesses do not even earn an income for most months of the year - so why pay a monthly fee every month?

    Move to Cash: (No Banks)
    Sometimes banks may not even be necessary. If you have a good cash management structure and a good safety structure then you can even bypass banks for transactions.

    Escaping Transaction Costs (not the same as escaping Banks) - you could close transactional accounts in banks and avoid the cost of deposit and withdrawal. While still keeping your investment accounts open and earning interest - that way you can still deposit cash but now it's free. So is it's withdrawal.
    I will give you an example, I only use investment accounts - I never touch transactional accounts. Investment accounts have 0 fees, and earn interest. However this is not suitable to all businesses.

    Hope this is helpful. We can discuss more specific businesses, or even specific banks too if anyone wants to.

    Comment

    • Blurock
      Diamond Member

      • May 2010
      • 4203

      #17
      =Miro Bagrov;59486]
      The bank is your servant, they are there to make you money.
      I do not think your bankers will agree. The reason for their existence is to make money off your account. You are responsible for generating your own business income.

      An example - you earn R400 interest in your current account structure. However, fees amount to R600 for the same period. This is a loss - consider finding another bank, or not using a bank. The only reason why income should be kept electronically is somehow the interest earned covers and exceeds the expenses paid.
      This argument is flawed as you should have a higher markup that 0-5% to sustain a business. Interest earned by a business is incidental unless you have an investment company. Most businesses can buy stock and have a mark-up of 20 - 50% or even more. Opportunities will be lost if the money is left in the bank. Consider your after tax return on an investment account and this is a no-brainer.

      Why does a business account have higher fees than an individual's?
      Fees on my business account are often lower than those on my personal account which has a fixed (package) charge. That is because I use electronic banking and channel all my debit orders through the personal account where it is "free" (included in he package).

      Imagine that your bank account pays R300 in fees a month - you could cancel this out with an interest earning deposit which earns R300 interest a month. This hypothetically brings your monthly cost to 0. This does not always work out or is not always practical however. It ties up a lot of cash.
      Exactly. It does not work for an operating business. The other tips and suggestions were good and l agree that banking depends on your own personal and business circumstances. Obtain quotes and use what is at your disposal. Do not fall for sales talk, but get the facts and how it will suit your business.
      Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

      Comment

      • Miro Bagrov
        Bronze Member

        • Dec 2011
        • 152

        #18
        Originally posted by Blurock
        I do not think your bankers will agree. The reason for their existence is to make money off your account. You are responsible for generating your own business income.
        Yes. I'm sure they disagree with me.
        They are still your servant - they already make an income when they lend your money out to others (accounting for about 50% of their income). Therefore they do not need to charge you fees to make an income in my mind. They are not doing me a favour by holding my money. I'm doing them a favour and I expect positive NETT returns. (That type of thinking).

        Originally posted by Blurock
        Fees on my business account are often lower than those on my personal account which has a fixed (package) charge. That is because I use electronic banking and channel all my debit orders through the personal account where it is "free" (included in he package).
        Good. But I will bet you R400 that I can make you pay zero bank charges for your business. I will tell you exactly which accounts to open, where, and how: If your bank fees are R0, I get R400, if they are less than R20 pm you can give me half back. Only R200.
        However, if the bank ends up paying you more than you pay them, you give me R500. If I can't get your bank fees in under R20 per month you don't have to pay me anything.

        Comment

        • Blurock
          Diamond Member

          • May 2010
          • 4203

          #19
          Originally posted by Miro Bagrov

          Good. But I will bet you R400 that I can make you pay zero bank charges for your business. I will tell you exactly which accounts to open, where, and how: If your bank fees are R0, I get R400, if they are less than R20 pm you can give me half back. Only R200.
          However, if the bank ends up paying you more than you pay them, you give me R500. If I can't get your bank fees in under R20 per month you don't have to pay me anything.
          I am sure you can, but I do not intend running my business from an investment or bond account. I need to transact on a daily basis and I need unlimited access to funds with no limitations on transfers.

          I do use an investment account which offset the charges more than adequately, but that is due to the nature of my business. The same account structure may be totally unpractical for a retailer or manufacturer.

          For my personal transactions I only use a credit card which I clear once a month so I do not pay any interest. My cash back and discount rewards is more than 10 times the card fees. So I am still winning, but that depends on each one's personal circumstances and lifestyle.
          Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

          Comment

          • Miro Bagrov
            Bronze Member

            • Dec 2011
            • 152

            #20
            Ah, I would have suggested, before withdrawing money, move it to an investment account ("call account"), and then withdraw it. This means no cash withdrawal fees. Sometimes, I am aware banks give you several free withdrawals though. Another trick is to use cash deposits to pay creditors and overheads, because then you don't carry transfer fees. That's if you could position the accounts so that you have an account that receives deposits for free, makes withdrawals for free. Actually, there are hundreds of tricks. So yes, very individual based stuff.


            This might help some people:
            An old lady asked me to give her a list of the best place to invest "long term" with "no risk" to the value. It gives an idea of the difference between banks.
            On close inspection we can see that the "Big 4" offer the lowest rates.

            Investment Analysis

            Assumptions:
            Amount +/- R 20 000
            Term: Long Term (excludes all short term investments)
            Risk: Very Low
            Date: 14 September 2011

            Investment Name Interest Rate
            ABSA Fixed Deposit (7 - 11 months) 5.16%
            ABSA Fixed Deposit (12 months) 4.96%
            Postbank Term Save (Post Office) 5.45%
            Bidvest 121 day Notice 6.50%
            Bidvest Fixed Deposit (12 months) 5.60%
            FNB Fixed Deposit (12 months) 5.22%
            FNB Fixed Deposit (24 months) 5.52%
            FNB Seniors Fixed Deposit (12 months) 5.75%
            FNB Seniors Fixed Deposit (24 months) 6.08%
            FNB Flexi Fixed Deposit 4.25%
            Standard Bank Fixed Deposit (12 month) 5.05%
            Standard Bank Fixed Deposit (24 month) 5.50%
            Standard Bank Fixed Deposit (48 month) 6.55%
            Standard Bank Market Link 3.82%
            RSA Retail Bonds 2 years (PostOffice) 7.25% (Fixed Rate)
            RSA Retail Bonds 3 Years (PostOffice) 7.50% (Fixed Rate)
            RSA Retail Bonds 5 years (PostOffice) 8.00% (Fixed Rate)
            RSA Retail Bond 3 year Inflation Link Inflation + 2.75% (Currently Inflation = 5.3%)

            Please Note:
            1.FNB is offering Fixed Deposits specially for seniors
            2.Government Retail Bonds offer seniors the right to receive their interest monthly into their bank accounts
            3.Interest payments can be sent into an account or re-invested with most investments.
            4.Fixed Rates will remain constant throughout duration, the others can change
            5.Inflation at the moment is 5.3%
            6.I forecast inflation to rise for the next 2.5 - 3 years, then drop again.

            I would suggest investing in government bonds since they offer the highest return.
            (The interest rates on government bonds are expected to increase over the next 2 years, the highest ever has been 11.5%. The best strategy might be to invest in the bank for a year or two then to take the money + it's interest and move it to a fixed rate RSA Retail Bond @ roughly 9.25% - 10%.)

            Regards,
            Miro Bagrov

            Comment

            • Blurock
              Diamond Member

              • May 2010
              • 4203

              #21
              So an investment at 8% p.a. less 5.3% inflation less 18 - 20% tax may give me a nett return of just over 2%? Is it really worth it?

              Many elderly people are in financial trouble because of this. When they grew up inflation was not an issue and one could "save for your old age". However if you are dependent on fixed deposit interest for an income, specially in a low interest cycle you will not earn much. When interest rates rise, inflation rises even more, so you are in a catch 22 situation.

              Blessed are those who made provision for their retirement by investing in inflation linked investments such as properties or businesses. Rental income that grows with inflation or recurring annuity type of income is a good hedge against fluctuating interest rates and inflation cycles.

              Pity I did not know this when I was younger!
              Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

              Comment

              • Miro Bagrov
                Bronze Member

                • Dec 2011
                • 152

                #22
                I agree with you.
                The banks always offer a bellow inflation return to clients. Most probably because people do not understand inflation and money.

                There are still ways to make money, but it requires more skill than in the old days. For example, I use fixed rate gov. bonds to hedge against interest rate dips and use inflation linked to hedge against CPI increases.
                It's not perfect though, nothing is.

                Here's my portfolio for example:
                This is the return on all my money held, even the money in my wallet. Some is cash, other invested. Excluding business money.
                Nominal Rate of Return:
                08 Jan 2011:
                8.00%
                07 October 2011:
                7.72%
                12 October 2011:
                7.48%
                12 August 2011:
                7.89%
                11 Feb 2011:
                9.01%
                13 May 2010:
                8.37%
                7 May 2010:
                8.58%
                1 May 2010:
                8.66%
                27 April 2010:
                8.6%
                26 April 2010:
                8.65%
                23 April 2010
                8.7%
                10 April 2010
                8.7%
                30 March 2010
                8.92%
                1 March 2010
                3.46%
                28 February 2010
                8.08%
                1 January 2010 - Portfolio Created
                0.25%
                (The Rate of Return is calculated on the weighted return basis of every asset class in the portfolio. All assets are included, including cash reserves.)
                The other important way to make money from money to to reduce inflation....
                This is what the average South African pays more for on a basket of products:
                CPI 6.0 Oct, 2011
                PPI 10.1 Nov, 2011
                (Source: http://www.resbank.co.za/pages/default.aspx)


                That is not necessarily what I pay for. I could pay more, or less.
                What if I found a way to buy the same products cheaper somewhere else... Then all of South Africa would be in inflation, and I would be in deflation (relative to them).
                Simple example, I decide to stop cooking, and live off takeaways -- Now the takeaways much 40% of my expense budget as oppose to just 5%. Relative to others, "Food Prices" have risen for me, because a plate of food now costs R35 instead of R3.5.

                So, ultimately, I just want to say, we have a very big hand in what we pay, and how much, and if our lifestyles are reckless no investment decision can save us from ourselves.... Truth.

                Comment

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