Competence.

[AndyD]

...you say the problem is that "people are not being paid their worth" and that is why people are not training appies....

Ooookkk,

Maybe you misunderstood my post or perhaps I worded it ambiguously. I was advocating stopping the ridiculous pay increases across the board and rather paying people according to their productivity and ability.

I'm saying that the competent and productive people are not paid their worth because the incompetent are becoming more overpaid with across the board pay hikes.

Apprenticeships cost a fortune and are an investment in the apprentices future output after he/she is qualified. If, after qualifying they aren't payed their worth then they pack up and leave with their qualification and experience then no return is seen on that investment. If apprentices are leaving en mass after qualifying then the whole system is unsustainable.

I think that the South African youth are lazy and stupid and I also think that the majority of adults are lazy and stupid. They want democracy with no responsibility, they want degrees and diplomas with no education, they want housing without paying for services, they want electricity but steal the cables, they want salary increases but less work, they want, they want, they demand....

This is your opinion. I'm sure there's a percentage of the population who fit into every one of those patterns of behavior which you have outlined but lumping all the youth or all adults in one bracket is an inaccurate generalisation.

[adrianh]

This is your opinion. I'm sure there's a percentage of the population who fit into every one of those patterns of behavior which you have outlined but lumping all the youth or all adults in one bracket is an inaccurate generalisation.

In my experience the generalization holds true for the majority. Only people who are stupid and lazy dance around the streets when they should be teaching, nursing or learning.

I have no sympathy for any of them, if the teachers don't want to teach, and the students don't want to learn, that's fine.

If the young people don't want to go to college and get N1 or N6 and are to lazy to be apprentices, then that's fine too.

Don't blame the companies for the fact that the youth are too lazy to learn.

[Dave A]

you got to ask yourself what ever happened to the old railway appy schools and durban electricity training centres etc...

Practically, the Training Boards that financed them were dismantled to make way for the SETA system, and apprenticeships were replaced with learnerships, OBE, unit standards, skills course etc. Hindsight shows it wasn't the best of decisions, but there you go - what's done is done (and happily the *sshole who was really the primary cause of this change is no longer in office). We live with the consequences and at least there are signs of change in training systems again, hopefully this time for the better.

Only people who are stupid and lazy dance around the streets when they should be teaching, nursing or learning.

I have no sympathy for any of them, if the teachers don't want to teach, and the students don't want to learn, that's fine.

If the young people don't want to go to college and get N1 or N6 and are to lazy to be apprentices, then that's fine too.

Don't blame the companies for the fact that the youth are too lazy to learn.

Be careful before you blame those youth (or the teachers and nurses too, come to think of it) either.

I have so many problems with this statement it's hard to know where to begin in a constructive manner. Gonna have to think about it.

For now I'm going to say you have to consider environment and leadership before you get too judgemental. Yes, there are problems, but you have to look below the surface to see what the real problem is, and it certainly isn't stupidity or laziness.

[Dave A]

Stupidity vs ignorance.

Stupidity is doing something wrong when you really should have known better.
Ignorance is doing something wrong because you didn't know better.

Stupidity arises from a personal condition.
Ignorance is heavily influenced by circumstance and environment.

To call a person stupid is an insult to that person's intelligence. Intelligence and education are two very different things.

I suggest to call the majority of South Africans stupid when the actual "problem" is the poor foundation of education is grossly insulting and entirely unfair.

Little surprise people take offence - after all, they're not fools.

Laziness I'll tackle tomorrow (unless there are any volunteers) - but here's a thought to chew on (seeing as most of the people on this site seem to have a reasonable work ethic) -

Where does your work ethic come from?

[adrianh]

Fair enough, but what is the problem then?

[murdock]

andy looking smart with the tie but dave still looks smarter with the bow tie

[AndyD]

Ooookkk, I think that the South African youth are lazy and stupid and I also think that the majority of adults are lazy and stupid.

Generalisations and stereotypes are not a credible foundation for debating a point.

How do you teach a man to fish if he wants a golden fishing pole, for you to bait the hook and then pull in the fish for him when it bites (while that same man is peeing in the river and selling the fishing tackle on the sly)

Humorously packaged generalisations and stereotypes are also not a credible foundation for debating a point.

In my experience the generalization holds true for the majority. Only people who are stupid and lazy dance around the streets when they should be teaching, nursing or learning.

I have no sympathy for any of them, if the teachers don't want to teach, and the students don't want to learn, that's fine.

If the young people don't want to go to college and get N1 or N6 and are to lazy to be apprentices, then that's fine too.

Don't blame the companies for the fact that the youth are too lazy to learn.

At no time did I blame the companies. My opinion was.
If apprentices are leaving en mass after qualifying then the whole system is unsustainable.

I have to say Adrian that I'm not keen on your posting tone and style. If you want sweeping statements to hold water as an argument or valid point then quote or make a linked citation to reliable or credible sources to back them up. If you don't then they're just empty stereotypes which isn't adding anything constructive and some of which might by seen as downright inflammatory.

[Dave A]

Fair enough, but what is the problem then?

People butting heads for the wrong reasons

I'm having one helluva day - try not to kill each other before I get back

[adrianh]

I have to say Adrian that I'm not keen on your posting tone and style.

And I should care - why? Remember, the majority fought for freedom of speech...the right to wave plackards and toi toi...

If you want sweeping statements to hold water as an argument or valid point then quote or make a linked citation to reliable or credible sources to back them up.

Good one...but I doubt that you take yourself seriously on this one.

If you don't then they're just empty stereotypes which isn't adding anything constructive and some of which might by seen as downright inflammatory.

Define "Constructive" - is the word defined as "Something that agrees with AndyD's view"

Well being inflammatory is also fine by me - I'm only following the example of such fine leaders as Julius Malema, Cosatu, Nehawu and lets not forget NUM. Then don't forget the one's who ran around singing "Shoot the Boer"

Nee wat ou broer, ek is nie gepla nie, my views are what they are, agree with them, don't agree with them, I don't really care one way or another. I'm long past the great happy happy, ra ra of 'The New South Africa"

[AndyD]

Well being inflammatory is also fine by me - I'm only following the example of such fine leaders as Julius Malema, Cosatu, Nehawu and lets not forget NUM. Then don't forget the one's who ran around singing "Shoot the Boer"

Wees nie afgunstig op 'n man van geweld en verkies geeneen van sy weë nie.

[adrianh]

Ek lees net die "Flying Spaghetti Monster Commandments" en daar praat hulle net oor "Pastafaria" en glad nie oor slim "out of context quotes"

[tec0]

Right, first let us look at what is really happening. The economy are build on industry both Industrial and commercial. Secondly we cannot deny the fact that massif amounts of money disappear and there is almost no accountability.

Yes it is true, it is easier to take mass action and demand things that are really a problem between employer and employee. Miss, Missis and Mister Public do not have control over Students, Pay increase or if the people are actually getting paid or not.

That problem is strictly between Administration, government and teacher student relations. Mass action in its current form targeted Miss, Missis and Mister Public by denying Healthcare, Sanitation, Municipal services and Protection. Thus Miss Missis and Mister Public must now deal with no services. But Miss Missis and Mister Public paid for those services every month?

The question now is reasonability. Is it reasonable to keep the paying Public responsible for everyone’s mistakes? Is it not true that the Public is the direct target?

Now motivation comes to mind: Yes you must be grateful for work but R800 a month will not allow for the basics like; Sanitation, Municipal services and Protection. Nor can it contribute to a retirement fund. So not being motivated is probably more relevant then saying people are lazy. Do the math yourself... Fact if your maximum income is R800 you will have big troubles when you turn 65 years of age.

Also consider that an overwhelming number of South Africans cannot afford to live in their own country.

So it is simply not worth it. So again; what is the problem? The problem is not Miss Missis and Mister Public they pay their taxes, they support government and pay for their services. But what about all that money, literally millions that go missing?

Can that money not pay for Fabrication facilities, healthcare facilities and training facilities? So yes sometimes it is difficult to imagine that mass action is NOT the answer, it is disruptive but if you consider the limited successes, then one my think it is pointless?

Basically we are dealing with new structures that are failing every aspect of our lives? So perhaps one must consider changing those structures?

See competence starts with Structure, ability and development. So start with the systems responsible for competence and you will have your change.

The truth is if you make it impossible for people to survive then you must consider the consequences.

[flaker]

Ek lees net die "Flying Spaghetti Monster Commandments" en daar praat hulle net oor "Pastafaria" en glad nie oor slim "out of context quotes"

I'm feeling deprived
can somebody be good enough to interpret these postings

[AndyD]

The gospel of the FSM is available as a free pdf here. http://loose-canon.fsm-consortium.com/the-loose-canon/ .