A peek inside the SA Reserve Bank

[Frankincense]

@ Dave : "Any form of solid proposal towards a genuinely viable alternative to do the job..."

Unfortunately this river has to run it's course till fulfilled. There will be no "better ways" allowed/permitted until this way has completed it's task at hand. As it's written, so it shall be.

@ tec0
"So, if the money gods wish me to have a tattoo of a serial code on my face than I will get that tattoo and be done with it. In the end what does it matter? If my destiny holds greater things then my path will lead to greater things."

It matters significantly in the end. If you wish to have your spirit last continually into eternity, you would think otherwise. There will be no "greater destiny" to those who accept it and are tormented due to it.

Choose life!

[tec0]

It matters significantly in the end. If you wish to have your spirit last continually into eternity, you would think otherwise. There will be no "greater destiny" to those who accept it and are tormented due to it.

Choose life!

I am sorry but you don’t get it Francois. Money rules, your life is worthless. The system did its job. Criminals don’t care who you are, they come they take and the victim ends up with a lot of bad memories a violated body and or death. Now what do you think happened to the human spirit during those last few horrible hours?

Now you can play connect the dots and that yes “something really strange is going on” but it doesn’t matter if you know or don’t know. It doesn’t matter what the truth is... The fact is, everyday somebody gets hurt in the worst possible way. Generations of bloodshed and we are still doing exactly the same thing.

Some call it a test, others call it evil... The truth is, it is human nature...

Now I am not trying to get you angry Francois. But conspiracy or no conspiracy the world stays the same regardless.

[Frankincense]

@ tec0

tut tut...

"I am sorry but you don’t get it Francois. Money rules, your life is worthless"

Firstly...you don't need to apologise, coz you have have it all wrong again anyways...how could I possibly take offence..lol. Just clear your outlook on life and you would be surprised how much less apoligising you will end up doing

Not a single humans life is worthless. Only those who choose to accept devaluing thiers by foolish choices. The Kingdom of Heaven has many rooms and you could occupy one

I will never anger over SA Forum topics we discuss. Banking etc is certainly a contributor to much misery in it's current state, and it will increase, as will most natural misery in these times...but I can only urge you to keep your eyes on that which is beautiful, good, truthfull...basically those things that you would want for those closest to you...love......

Don't let "The Darkness" of any time consume you. You are worth more.


Member's may consider our tangent slightly


lol...

anyways....the ultimate goal is just to share that fully authenticated banking will end in "no buying or selling without your chip"....and that ALL who read this have a healthy free choice when it's established....

It's only Doom n Gloom to those who choose such!

Stay Positive...and know your and those you love's life has so much value it cannot even be measured!!!!

[irneb]

Once you realise that you are not in control of destiny but destiny controls you then things get easier to accept.

I'm not exactly with you on that. It's not destiny controlling you, it's other people.

Yes I can say things like: Money can be replaced by a recourse base society where we will work together to make things better. Our achievements will be our reward and our will to advance will be our drive.

Sounds a bit like the "true" definition of commune-ism ... the definition given by Karl Marx that is (but not completely see further below). Not by the so-called communists who are actually socialists ... formerly known as feudalists ... previously despots and slave owners: the more thing change, the more they stay the same. The most direct description of socialism is dictatorship: The government owns all, controls all, and no-one outside the government has any say in the matter. This is usually the wool-over-the-eyes word used "Communism" --> a utopia for all, therefore we need a strong government for the people to guide them on the right path. What a crock of BS!

The problem with communism is it won't work. It needs unselfishness, since it defines a way of life where everyone (without any form of government whatsoever) will do everything in their power & capability for the betterment of the commune (the society as a whole). This must be done without expectancy of any form of remuneration. And then each individual will only take from the commune that which they cannot survive without. This doesn't work with human nature which is never without some level of selfishness, the first guy to take more than his fair share or not pulling his weight makes for the system to break down. The rest, seeing that he's now better off and doesn't need to do as much work will start "striking" and / or taking in equal measure. Thus causing less production and more demand until it reaches a scenario equal to famine.

That's one of the only 3 philosophies humans have ever come up with on how to live. The other side is capitalism. This accepts that everyone is in fact selfish and will do whatever they deem best for themselves. Thus you do as little as possible to derive as much as possible benefit. Usually to the detriment of someone else, but then you're selfish for your own & your kin's own - not other strangers are you? It the only philosophy which works as nature does: survival of the "fittest".

The 3rd philosophy, called by its euphemism of socialism (first used by Karl Marx as well), makes for a controlling person / group which literally has total and complete control over everyone else. Whenever you have a government you're that bit closer to being a socialist society. The stronger the government the more socialistic (or rather the more dictatorial).

The only place where communism has even displayed a modicum of possibility is inside something like the Israeli kibutzes, but even there it tended towards socialism as there's usually some form of leader. Pure capitalism is only possible in a state of anarchy (i.e. no government whatsoever). Absolutely all civilizations throughout history formed some mixture of capitalism & socialism, because if there was more freedoms people tended to capitalism instead of communism. And no government could control everything, even in the USSR there was still a black-market (i.e. capitalism).

So to come back to your utopic idea: How to entise people to do something? There's some theories behind methods, but the most common is: coercion (socialism) and enticement (capitalism). It just depends on what you refer to as enticement / coercion, money / imprisonment, status, the knowledge that you (other people's knowledge that is) have done this / or being declared someone who's not a team player, etc. Your idea is nothing new, it's the age-old concept, you just focus on a different form of "currency".

A further idea is religious doctrine & fanaticism.

@Francios: I'm not an atheist, but I'm also not one to hold with any form of religion-ism. I've looked at as many as I could find info about after becoming extremely fed up with Christianity's contradictions (and thus faults). I've come to realize that all are forms of worship devised by humans, and I cannot believe that any human is divine, without error or ulterior motive. Thus I don't think any religion could be shown to be a "true" religion.

While most religions have "lovely" ideas of community spirit and helping others, they all have only one single thing in common: They're all simply another way of control over the society. The very first form of religion (Shamanism) had a purpose of binding a tribe under a leader and his shaman, usually by the shaman telling stories of how people who don't do as they're told end with horrible deaths. So it's a form of fear mongery in order to entice people to accept a dictator.

And all religions since have either been established for this purpose, or bastardized into this purpose. Christianity is actually a very extreme example of such, just think about the roman catholic church being the single most influential organization throughout the dark- & middle ages (1500+ years). Not to mention the richest! The problem is not religion in itself (whatever form you're referring to) but rather what people do with it.

From the other side of religion (the worshipers instead of the controllers) it also doesn't get away from the basic human nature of selfishness. "What?" you say "What about all those saintly people doing all those good deeds?" Well, them being religious and thus believing in a recompense in the after-life, obviously have different priorities: i.e. instead of yearning for more money they yearn to be "closer to god" - seen as some form of status / better after-life. So even mother Teresa was not immune to her own selfishness.

And so we come to the farce which is called democracy ... which is intended to use socialism to iron out the problems caused by capitalism, but put a choke-chain on the dictator(s) to stop socialism's excesses. This thread proves that it's a sham and there's still slave-like ownership of the society by a small group of elite, even in this so-called democracy.

[Frankincense]

" This thread proves that it's a sham and there's still slave-like ownership of the society by a small group of elite, even in this so-called democracy."

Approved √√√

It is good we are all free to express ourselves here freely...the worst is yet to come...but the wise among us shall dwell in safety

Today I leave you with words of Emperor RasTafari declared decades ago:

"Democracy, republics: What do these words signify? What have they changed in the world? Have men become better, more loyal, kinder? Are the people happier? All goes on as before, as always. Illusions, illusions. Besides, one should consider the interest of a nation before subverting it with words. Democracy is necessary in some cases and We believe some African peoples might adopt it. But in other cases it is harmful, a mistake."

[Dave A]

Unfortunately this river has to run it's course till fulfilled. There will be no "better ways" allowed/permitted until this way has completed it's task at hand. As it's written, so it shall be.

That sort of fatalist thinking isn't going to change the world. In fact if all of mankind thought that way, the earth would still be the centre of the universe and everything else would revolve around it.

It's a cop-out. C'mon - stretch your thinking.

Here's the mission:

• Manage the number of tokens in circulation used to facilitate trade as a representation of relative value.
  
• Put a system in place that allows people who have more of these tokens than they need at the moment to fund people who could put those tokens to good use.
  
• In doing so you have to remember a golden rule - what gets rewarded gets done.

ps. Exceptional post, Irneb

[irneb]

Thanks Dave. BTW, a friend just pointed me at this: http://www.informationisbeautiful.ne...r-o-gram-2009/

It puts some perspective on just how much "money" is used simply to prevent banks and the like from not being able to pay their directors these fat bonuses.

[wynn]

A 'Conservative' Capitalist Government leaning towards Socialism is probably the answer.

Enough Socialism as needed to protect the weak not 'Bullshit Socialism' as in the old USSR and China where the 'Aparatchick' were the 'Oligarchs' who took everything for themselves and everybody else was too scared to complain, the ordinary people got their own back by doing the least they could to produce the capital needed, which eventually led to the downfall of the System.

Enough Capitalism to allow those who toil to be rewarded adequately. Not 'Rampant Capitalism' as in the USA where financiers were raping the savings of the Banking Institutions and calling it 'Performance Bonuses'!!

'Conservative' as in not interfering too much in the daily running of the Country but enough to maintain the 'status quo' not as in 'Old Fuddy Duddy' too scared to move forward or 'Nanny State'.
Just make sure the Services (Security, Education, Infrustructure, Health & Welfare) are adequate.

[Frankincense]

@ Wynn,

No different form of government will solve the issues raised in this thread. You grabbing at straws in desperation...lol

@ Dave - "That sort of fatalist thinking isn't going to change the world."

Who are you to think you can change the world?

You, nor anyone on this forum can change the prophecies of the Bible. All shall be caused to receive a mark for transactions...deal with it!

Suggesting some "new forms of trade agreements and token control"???.....lmao...you're so funny...rather take care of your spiritual needs and those of your families while you have be granted time

Vain imaginations I tell you....

@irneb and all those who love your words....unless you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ....you will wallow in your confusion and denialism.

"I'm not an atheist, but I'm also not one to hold with any form of religion-ism." ..you have so much to learn...that you confess not that God created you and He alone is worthy of praise! what is religion-ism?....have you never heard of Christ and normal religion, pure and undefiled where you get together with brothers and sisters and pray and live a good life and accept all have faults and fall short of His Glory and live by Grace alone?? Shame...depravity abounds.

"The very first form of religion (Shamanism)" ...absolute internet garbbage!!!

Let's put you through class 101:

The word "Religion" has it's root in the Greek word "Religio" meaning "Bond"....so the first spiritual bond existed between Adam and Jahovah. Why do you churn out such trash, and worse, why would so many applaud it?....lol

I won't wrestle with a fool, less I stoop to his level.

Everybody here will only be as free to do as they are told, unless they approach The Light...Jesus Christ.

Go ahead.....stone me....thank God this is just a web page and these words bear testimony against all who will claim not to have heard the Good News. Make no mistake, Good news to the wicked is really BAD if they refuse to comply....

[AndyD]

Good grief, this thread caught me off guard. I just had to quickly change my background music to Handel's Messiah, the Leonard Cohen album I selected whilst reading some topics in the chat forum just wasn't cutting it.

[tec0]

I think there are just too many systems creating too many problems. Everybody needs 3 to 5 things to survive. 1> we need food, 2> we need water, 3> we need shelter 4> we need medical assistance. 5> we need protection. Base on these 3 to 5 needs, it is reasonable to assume that people will work towards those goals.

But now you get those that want to think for others. Today we have everybody thinking for everybody else. You say we have choice? Choice in cosmetics perhaps, but when it comes to basic survival you have no choice. So survival comes down to function. As humans we can grow food relatively easily. As humans we can purify water even seawater.

The question now is, what level of existence are you as a human willing to accept? Will the above basics be enough? The truth is in the days of the king and country education was limited to the point where only a few could rule simply because they were educated.

Today we can educate people by the millions. We have the technology to do so. Thus why do we need leaders or democratic or communism systems? The fact is we don’t...

What we do need is food, clean water, shelter, health and security. Now what about innovation? The fact is innovation can still exist, people can still work get paid and save up for the things they want. But what we don’t need is a bunch of supper wealthy people eating 98% of everything the world provides. If there is no more supper powerful supper wealthy people then more wealth can be given to the world.

Why is this not possible, because we think everything is a conspiracy! We think that there are supper powerful rich people around. The truth is these supper powerful elite are still just people... and that is all they are... there is nothing godly about them.

So just say No... If enough people say No and take back the ability to take care of themselves. Then there are no more supper powerful elite individuals.

But because of simple inconvenience people shy away from this challenge to say NO....

[Dave A]

Who are you to think you can change the world?

Francois, in my own little way, I already have. So have lots of other ordinary people who have found themselves in extraordinary circumstance. There have been times in my life when I've had to pinch myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming.

I am not widely famous and I don't seek glory. So let me tap into accomplishments widely known to make a point -

If a young boy told Francois Pienaar that he wanted to be captain of the Springboks and lift the Webb Ellis Trophy one day, what would Francois say?
This can't be done - find another dream?

What would most other people say to that young boy?

If a young child told Nelson Mandela that they wanted to be President of South Africa one day, what would he say?

Pick any famous person who has achieved much and retained a reasonable dose of humility - and ask them "Can I do what you did?"

They know - if you really want to you can. After all they have done it themselves as much by accident than by design, and they probably pinch themselves regularly too.

[irneb]

Let's put you through class 101:

The word "Religion" has it's root in the Greek word "Religio" meaning "Bond"....so the first spiritual bond existed between Adam and Jahovah. Why do you churn out such trash, and worse, why would so many applaud it?....lol

I won't wrestle with a fool, less I stoop to his level.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. We both don't want to stoop to any level to pick up those stones now do we?

[irneb]

@irneb and all those who love your words....unless you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ....you will wallow in your confusion and denialism.
...

Go ahead.....stone me....thank God this is just a web page and these words bear testimony against all who will claim not to have heard the Good News. Make no mistake, Good news to the wicked is really BAD if they refuse to comply....

Actually your comments have been festering in me over the weekend. This is exactly why I don't like any religion-ism: Your good book is written and rewritten by humans (not by god). The largest rewrite, cum addition, cum omission was during Constantine's reign - a self confessed PAGAN only being forcibly baptized on his deathbed! Now how could god have had any say about what that man placed into the christian bible?

My whole point about religion is that it's only of the most useful tools for the oppressor: both birds incentive & coercion are caught with the same stone! And better, that stone is a future stone (which cannot be proven / dis-proven). And best of all, all (good incentives, and bad coercion) is placed at some 3rd party's (god) feet. Someone who may or may not exist, but either way cannot be argued against.

Thus the controllers of the religion will do as they please, since they have absolutely no responsibility: It's always "God's will", it's never "Sorry I made a mistake, burning that woman at the stake was not right!"

What you fail to realize is that you may already be duped into something beyond what the actual god intended. Nothing any human put into that book (or any other) can be taken at face value. That may exactly be what they want you to believe. And because you believe such fatalistic doctrine, you don't even contemplate that you may be able to help change the future. Or in other words: "Don't make waves for us, everything will happen as we've planned it." But then: "Oh, but don't do nothing. You can't expect us to do everything for you!"

But here's an example of just how faulty that book is: On the one hand you are told there's predestination and everyone is already been chosen or not for the paradise hereafter. But the same book tells you that God only helps those who help themselves. WTF? So be fatalist, but also work towards a better future?

Good grief, this thread caught me off guard. I just had to quickly change my background music to Handel's Messiah, the Leonard Cohen album I selected whilst reading some topics in the chat forum just wasn't cutting it.

It scares me stiff as well!

Today we can educate people by the millions. We have the technology to do so. Thus why do we need leaders or democratic or communism systems? The fact is we don’t...

Exactly! We don't need any government, unless we cannot think of our own future and the consequences of our actions. The problem is the selfishness clouds our vision, how many "great" and "wonderful" leaders have become oppressive, domineering, paranoid, power hungry, etc. after coming to power? Even if they were "true" in their intensions, the power always changed them.

I'd love to see a civilization without a government flourish, but I fear human nature is simply to overwhelming and it will cause this anarchy to become its negative connotation.

That's the reason behind me not becoming an atheist. The only way I can see the horde of human stupidity kept from its own self-destruction is if some divine intervening entity rules over us all. But none of our religions believe in an active god (well not those in practice these days). They all have a god set apart from humanity, always working through intermediaries (who are always humans). And then if you look at the more "active" gods like those of the Greeks, then those gods seem extremely human in nature - same selfish, proud, domineering, etc. bad aspects of the human nature shows through. And then when you start looking at the current 5 major religions you realize, nothing much has changed from such similar beginnings.

[Dave A]

Ordinarily I try not to meddle with people's religious predisposition (generally a total waste of time) - Normally my view is "whatever works for you." But perhaps this point needs to be made:

The largest rewrite, cum addition, cum omission was during Constantine's reign - a self confessed PAGAN only being forcibly baptized on his deathbed! Now how could god have had any say about what that man placed into the christian bible?

Not so fast As I recall, that is pretty much the point of departure for one particular branch of christianity around today, and a number that died in what followed Constantine.

That's the reason behind me not becoming an atheist. The only way I can see the horde of human stupidity kept from its own self-destruction is if some divine intervening entity rules over us all.

On the flip side, some people might not be so callous with their lives if they knew "this is it - as good as it gets."