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Thread: Bin Laden - some are good, even the bad. Some are bad, even the good.

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    Cool Bin Laden - some are good, even the bad. Some are bad, even the good.

    In a clandestine operation a group of men entered a foreign country, without permission of its government, attacked a domestic residence, killed three people including a woman, made off with the body of one of them; which they subsequently dumped in the ocean, without participation of the relatives of the deceased.
    These are the facts of the matter. They were a consequence of a “wanted dead or alive” notice issued by George Bush, previous President of the united States of America.

    In reaction, nearly the whole world has expressed approval, ranging from satisfaction, solemn exaltation to wild exuberance. We have done this, even though the “Wild West” days in which men were flushed out by a posse, and killed on a wanted dead or alive notice, are long gone.

    This world is made up of mostly good people who, by and large, insist on certain sacred principles. These include the fact that a person is presumed to be innocent until proved guilty before an independent adjudicating authority; that extra judicial killing is murder; that one cannot be accuser, judge/jury and executioner. The fact that the execution was on foreign soil, after clandestine invasion, is aggravating of the violation of these dearly held sacred beliefs and norms, embedded in a raft of dogmata called human rights. Indeed these rights are enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights signed off by nearly all governments at the United Nations.

    That is our belief set. They are a fundamental component of what we insist on, fight for and defend, having learnt from the lessons of history. We say that anything short of this is injustice. We say that an injustice to one is an injustice to all.


    "We are bound by an inescapable garment of mutuality, whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." -Dr. Martin Luther King, jr.
    - letter from the Birmingham Jail, 1962

    But for the fact that the victim was Osama Bin Laden, we would have undoubtedly had an entirely opposite reaction and would have expressed negative emotions, ranging from disapproval to extreme condemnation.

    In my book1 I advert to a saying that – “some are good even the bad, some are bad even the good”. The phenomenon of Bin Laden has managed to emphatically validate this saying. Many believe that bad boy Bin Laden was good. However the vast majority of good folk the world over, have suddenly ignored/changed all of the most fundamental and sacred rules that we post at the very center of unalienable human rights.

    We have this “bad” approach because we have accepted what has been served up by the media. Bin Laden has been caricatured as the devil incarnate. At a stroke the awful power of the media is demonstrated. It has induced an almost universal anti Bin Laden hysteria. In that hysteria we fail to distinguish what is information and what is proof beyond reasonable doubt. We abandon all standards and our sacred beliefs. We have all accepted information from the media, not evidence, let alone proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

    In the process Bin Laden, and those who died with him, accused and convicted of nothing, were divested of all their human rights … as were the 2752 innocent victims from 97 countries on 9/11, as well as so many others around the world. The blood of the innocents cry out, not so much for justice as for vengeance.

    So as much as we may profess to believe in standards that accord with a level of personal integrity that we have assigned ourselves as civilized human beings, in the end we have been forced to accept that the ancients were not wrong when they insisted on “an eye for an eye”. *

    All of the above is guaranteed once some believe that the gratuitous killing of other innocent human beings is justified in order to make a political statement. This thinking is grotesque, obscene and abhorrent on every count … and we instinctively all know that no God can approve of it.
    __________________________________________________ ______________________
    1The Other –without fear, favor or prejudice. (See - http://theother.orgfree.com/)
    * a further point made in the book
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    I had to say it was the wierdest thing watching the Obama announcement of the killing of Bin Laden in one frame on TV, with the adjacent frame showing crowds in New York rejoicing to the news.

    What we think of as civilised behaviour in civilised nations sure is a thin veneer of the beast within at times.

    At least there wasn't a parade through the streets with the decapitated head of the enemy on a stick... but it didn't seem that far off watching it.
    The trouble with opportunity is it normally comes dressed up as work.

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    What we think of as civilised behaviour in civilised nations sure is a thin veneer of the beast within at times.
    In my book I make the point that mankind is as barbaric as ever. Surely I am vindicated.
    Last edited by Dave A; 03-May-11 at 09:48 PM. Reason: repaired coding
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

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    i wonder if the body was actually dumped in the sea or taken to the same place they keep the aliens...elvis...hilter and the rest

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    Gold Member Martinco's Avatar
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    Chris, are you saying that you do not approve of the killing of Osama or only the way in which it was done.?
    George Bush did say that he is declaring war on terrorism and I guess Osama declared war on USA when he ordered the WTC to be destroyed. Osama was a terrorist and it was said that the US will seek him out and "deal" with him but he did not co-operate in this deal. I guess war is war and like with any war, there will be casualties !
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    nelson mandela...was also a terrorists...who killed inoccent people...he got a nobel peace prize

    mcbride also comes to mind...i was in the entrance where the womens body came flying thru the door from the explosion...and i had to carry injured people out the building to the ambulances...why was there never a dead or alive bounty put on their heads??? or does it only work on the amount of people you...if you only kill one or 2 people you become the the chief of police...you kill a couple more you become the president of a country...but if you kill a couple thousands you get a price put on your head....mmmmm i must not read or reply to this thread anymore it is starting to make me angry again its taken years to work thru it and come toterms with what i saw and have had to live with for 20 months while in the bush...and yes some people will say but you werent a recce or any special forces...the difference i was never trained nor was i equipment to deal with what i experienced just dumped back into society after 20 months in the bush...i was just a scared 17 year old...after watching your mate put a rifle in his mouth and blow himself to bits you get tough quick...or do you?

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Martinco View Post
    Chris, are you saying that you do not approve of the killing of Osama or only the way in which it was done.?
    George Bush did say that he is declaring war on terrorism and I guess Osama declared war on USA when he ordered the WTC to be destroyed. Osama was a terrorist and it was said that the US will seek him out and "deal" with him but he did not co-operate in this deal. I guess war is war and like with any war, there will be casualties !
    Personally I am glad the swine is dead and hope he rots in hell.

    But, and it is a big but, the REALITY is that he has been executed, without evidence, without trial, in an illegal operation by "hitmen". I

    That is the reality, whichever way you want to bake.

    What we know about Bin Laden we have got entirely from the media. That is information, not evidence.

    So I am drawing attention to the fact that we, (just about the whole world) are quite happy to tear up all our sacred principles ... etc ... because of who the SUSPECT is! Look, you can't be killing suspects - Surely?

    And I point out that it all starts with those who believe in killing, bombing, blowing up innocent people to make a political point.

    In short, here we have the ultimate irony, and we, as mankind, are being shown up for the barbaric savages that we actually are. ts a point that I made in my book and, once again, I am vindicated.
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisNG53 View Post
    In short, here we have the ultimate irony, and we, as mankind, are being shown up for the barbaric savages that we actually are.
    Barbaric or merely brutal?

    If we stick to the process and execution, it seems the entire operation was very clinical. From a purely analytical point of view, the USA achieved a remarkable "best solution" from a collection of bad options available to them. There'll be repercussions, I'm sure, but nothing compared to if they had gone any other way.

    I suggest Martin makes a telling point - it was war. Both sides quite openly saw it that way. And this is the sort of thing that happens...
    War is brutal - it doesn't have to be barbaric, at least not nowadays.

    No, it wasn't the action itself that got to me as "primitive" or "barbaric," it was the celebration in what I saw as a very sombre moment.

    @ Murdock. I suggest Nelson Mandela got the Nobel Peace Prize for his part in making the peace from a time of madness...
    And holding a grudge doesn't help make the peace.
    The trouble with opportunity is it normally comes dressed up as work.

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    Cool

    Dave A -
    Barbaric or merely brutal
    I think we are in broad agreement. The difference is in emphasis. In the book I was dealing with the argument about having the death penalty or not.

    Extract from my book

    As regards the moral argument, this to my mind, must also fall down once one has to concede that the killing of another is perfectly justified in certain circumstances. An example is when a father finds his child being raped and strangled. No one will blame the father if he there and then puts the attacker to death. Starting at that point it then becomes somewhat artificial to attempt to draw a line in the sand and say that a point has been reached where killing is now immoral. If armed men arrive at your home at night must you wait until they kill first? If you have failed to stop an intruder from shooting your wife, who is now lying in a pool of blood, must you leave the attacker to escape and not fire on him? As said the moral argument must fail for being, in effect, artificial in its parameters.

    And regrettably there are some who do not share the noble ideas espoused by the abolitionist school regarding the sanctity of human life. There are some incredibly evil people who will plan, rape, torture and strangle even a five year old child. To my mind it is logical to say that such people forfeit the right to their own lives apart from being a danger to others. In these circumstances the ancient biblical adage of "eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth" has merit and resonates in the hearts of most human beings.
    In categorizing such ancient counsel as barbaric, instead of respecting it as ancient wisdom; we arrogantly accord ourselves, as supposedly modern civilized beings, a standard that is simply untrue.

    The truth is that man is more barbaric than ever. Proof reposes in the fact that, despite having the so called United Nations, at unbelievable public expense, rape, torture and genocide is flourishing and so is the insidious killing of humans by way of needless deprivation, exposure and starvation. Obscene is the fact that more people have been killed in the name of religion, i.e., moral grounds, than for any other reason in history. Despots, tyrants and killers are routinely lauded, revered and lionized as great leaders. We are as "uncivilized" and as "barbaric' as ever, and should not hypocritically presume to be otherwise.

    We certainly appear to have little basis for disdainfully rejecting the ancient wisdom of our forefathers who to my mind were saying, in their "eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth - " statement, no more than we now profess to say –
    "Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done".

    End Extract

    I would drive home my point by insisting that if South Africa was also faced with a Bin Laden it would not hesitate to to do what the Americans have done and, in the process, breach all its own laws - including its "sanctimonious" stance against the death penalty.
    And let us not forget that two other people were killed in the "hit".
    To my mind this culture of "kill or be killed" is barbaric. It certainly is brutal.
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

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    Just to round off my stance about the terrible irony of the whole saga.

    1. We don't have evidence against Bin Laden ... not one scrap of evidence. What we have is information furnished by the media.

    2. We do not know that Bin Laden was guilty of anything. What we have is belief. In my book I also make a clear distinction between believing and knowing.

    3. If the members of the Navy Seals, who executed the "hit", were tried by any court, in a constitutional democracy, the judge would be compelled to convict them or cold blooded, premeditated murder and sentence them to death, if that is the ultimate penalty in the particular country.

    Sobering I think .. and as said it all starts with the Bin Ladens of this world who think that killing innocent human beings in order to make a political statement is acceptable. Whether we like it or not these swines are keeping us in the jungle of lawlessness and barbarism .. thats if it can be said we ever left that jungle. I would dispute that.
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

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