Gee, I did not realize. See my questions in your reply.Originally Posted by AndyD
I was actually referring to what can I do with regard to timers, but since I have to rip it out and do over, this is probably the time to do that plus timers. Can you help explain what you mean and advise with drawings? I would like my timers at the geysers and not in the DB's. These geysers is on 24/7 and makes a huge dent in my pocket!
Edit: Or maybe a picture or two of a good installation outdoors like this?
~Expenses will eat you alive! - My first Boss~
Sorry IMHO, I was a little short with the last reply. The electrical installation does require some tidying up and the best way would be to remove and reinstall whilst reusing whatever components you can.
The cable doesn't look like UPVC which is a UV stabalised outer sheath. I would reinstall it in PVC conduit which is also not suitable for sunlight but it can be painted with PVA or similar paint which would make it fine.Internal PVC cable used externally in view of the sun
I was told this is suitable and legal for indoors and outdoors?
Earth bonding comes in all shapes and sizes. It's essentially just wiring that connects the hot pipe, the cold pipe, the chassis of the geyser, the body of the element and the supply earth together. It's there to ensure that under no circumstances any components or pipework rise to a potential above earth (0 volts) even under a fault condition. It has another worthwhile spin-off which is reducing corrosion throughout the whole plumbing system including the cylinder itself. This earth wiring should be visible around the geyser and its associated pipes.No earth bonding visible on any cylinders
What does it look like?
It comes in good, bad and ugly versions but as long as it's mechanically sound and tests good it's fine;
SpregSpreg?
Standard lever type isolators aren't rated as weather proof. You can reinstall them in a York box or similar.Isolators inadequately IP rated
How can you see that?
This is plumbing or building regs, I asume it's for safety purposes in case of leaking hot water. Similarly the pressure release valves being piped to drain is also plumbing/building codes related to safety of people in proximity.No trays installed under cylinders
Why trays outdoors?
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Thanks AndyD. Now, which timer do you recommend?
~Expenses will eat you alive! - My first Boss~
it looks like white surfix...which can be installed...i had a confrontation with another electrical contractor about this issue...the supplier informed me that it is suitably protected against direct sunlight...i was always under the impression that only black could be used out doors.
That is what they called it. Thanks.
~Expenses will eat you alive! - My first Boss~
My next question.
I looked at timers on the web. Seems like they all can handle up to 16 amp only. That is 3520 watt?
Does that mean that where I have 2 or three geysers in a group, that I can not have one timer switching all of them?
~Expenses will eat you alive! - My first Boss~
There's many ways to skin the cat when it comes to timers. You can have an arrangement where one timer controls all three cylinders simultaneously via a contactor or you can have each cylinder with its own individual timer. Which method and also which particular timer you choose would depend on several things;
- Does the premises have varying occupancy or is it always fully occupied?
- How many flats or families are sharing this water?
- Is each of the three cylinders on its own dedicated supply circuit from the DB?
- Is each cylinder the same kilowatt rating? I can see some look like they're varying capacity.
- Are you sure the water goes through the three cylinders in series? It's difficult to tell looking at the photos but I'm not sure that they're configured that way......
A couple of other points;
Firstly insulation. You really should consider insulating the pipework between the cylinders plus the final hot water pipe that sypplies the building.
Secondly, more insulation. Cylinders that stand outside get wet. When the internal insulation is soaked it's no longer effective and because it's well enclosed it takes a long time to dry out again. The losses during the period it's wet are astronomical. Covering the cylinders to keep the rain off is critical to any energy saving plan.
Thirdly, more insulation. Add a geyser blanket to at least the middle and final cylinder.
Obviously the hotter the water holding temperature the greater the heat losses so you'll save the most by putting the final cylinder on a timer and the least by putting the first cylinder on a timer. Depending on the temperature settings, ie if the first cylinder is only set at 15 degreesabove ambient then the losses will be negligable. It might not be worth the outlay to switch off the first cylinder as the payback time would be so long, it might be better to spend that money elsewhere where the savings might be higher.
It would also be worth checking the system is set up correctly. I've come across a couple of these cascaded heating systems where all the thermostats are wound all the way up to 60 degrees plus because someone has tampered with it without knowing. There are however occasions where the amount of hot water required has grown greater than the system was originally designed to deliver so to compensate the temps of the first two cylinders have been increased. If higher delivery capacity is required then, as a cheap fix, changing the mounting of any horizontal cylinders into vertical mounted can increase the hot water capacity of that cylinder by up to 20%.
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murdock, I must apologise. I highjacked your thread completely. Sorry.
AndyD, I will discuss this again with you at a later stage. I know I have to do this, but I must first finish the other project. I am still waiting for delivery of the items ordered!
~Expenses will eat you alive! - My first Boss~
hijacked...no problem...the reason i start threads is to get people talking...sharing ideas...solving problems...and hopefully come up with solutions...so long as there is "dicussion" its all good...i appreciate and enjoy reading andys input...it great to have a person like him responding wit the valuable info he contributes.
Thanks for the compliment Murdoch. I also think most of what's being discussed and debated is in the spirit of the opening post.
The first thing I think IMHO should do is a sketch of the complete system and exactly how it's configured. Actually get in the roof and make sure the pipework runs the way you think it does. Once you know exactly what you've got and the existing configuration you can develope a more holistic energy saving plan, the timers would be a part of this plan which might include other elements such as adding insulation, installing rain covers over the cylinders and even replacing shower heads etc.
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