Titanium Geyser Element: Solution To Reduce Your Hot Water Consumption By 50%?

[Justloadit]

Talking about elements and geysers

I have just finished off developing a system, in which you do not have to remove the geyser element. Connecting PV panels directly to any type of load with out an intelligent controller is extremely inefficient. PV panels are what we call constant current supplies, in other words, irrespective of the load draw, the panel will supply a constant current value.

An example, if we take a 250W PV panel, which at midday can give you 30V at 8.4Amps totaling 252Watts effectively, and you connect this directly to a flat 12V car battery, then the panel will supply 12V at 8.4A only, totaling 101Watts. You are losing 149Watts. An electronic device, known as an MPPT controller, will match the load to the panel, in other words the controller if designed for a 12V load, will convert the panel power to 12V at 21Amps. Far more power than the conventional method.

Replacing the element in the geyser to 750W 24-48V element will work with an MPPT, however, the currents at 24V and 48V are very high, causing the use of expensive very thick battery cables to ensure that there is no loss in the cables during full load, and also to ensure that the cables do not heat up with the high current. This makes the installation difficult and costly.

Here with my brochure.
Attachment 6113

It may not be cheaper than the vacuum tubes or direct solar heating systems at first glance, but installation of this unit is a couple of hours, and only requires the connection of a few electrical wires, as compared to the direct solar water heaters, which require modification of pipe work and additional plumbing, modification to roof, requirement of a heat exchanger with a specially designed geyser for the application, circulating pumps and controllers, and the additional weight on the roof of the circulating water and reservoir tank.

Ideally suited in the addition of alternative energy to an already built home using an electrical geyser.

Feel free to request distributors price list

[SilverNodashi]

Talking about elements and geysers

I have just finished off developing a system, in which you do not have to remove the geyser element. Connecting PV panels directly to any type of load with out an intelligent controller is extremely inefficient. PV panels are what we call constant current supplies, in other words, irrespective of the load draw, the panel will supply a constant current value.

An example, if we take a 250W PV panel, which at midday can give you 30V at 8.4Amps totaling 252Watts effectively, and you connect this directly to a flat 12V car battery, then the panel will supply 12V at 8.4A only, totaling 101Watts. You are losing 149Watts. An electronic device, known as an MPPT controller, will match the load to the panel, in other words the controller if designed for a 12V load, will convert the panel power to 12V at 21Amps. Far more power than the conventional method.

Replacing the element in the geyser to 750W 24-48V element will work with an MPPT, however, the currents at 24V and 48V are very high, causing the use of expensive very thick battery cables to ensure that there is no loss in the cables during full load, and also to ensure that the cables do not heat up with the high current. This makes the installation difficult and costly.

Here with my brochure.
Attachment 6113

It may not be cheaper than the vacuum tubes or direct solar heating systems at first glance, but installation of this unit is a couple of hours, and only requires the connection of a few electrical wires, as compared to the direct solar water heaters, which require modification of pipe work and additional plumbing, modification to roof, requirement of a heat exchanger with a specially designed geyser for the application, circulating pumps and controllers, and the additional weight on the roof of the circulating water and reservoir tank.

Ideally suited in the addition of alternative energy to an already built home using an electrical geyser.

Feel free to request distributors price list

I am / was interested in your equipment, but there's no prices on your website?

[Justloadit]

I am / was interested in your equipment, but there's no prices on your website?

Send me your email address and I will get it to you.

[richardpickering]

I know this is old, but thought that it was worth replying. We have an element that we are about to launch that works specifically with horizontal Kwikot geysers. It delivers 20-45% savings on a standard coil. The inventors of this have done many labs tests. We have done field tests measuring water and power use on the geyser and confirmed results. I know this sound untrue, but the figures speak for themselves.
The issue with the argument about a specific amount of power heating a specific amount of water is that it does not take into account: standing losses and heating inefficiencies inherent in the current element structure.
In 2 test cases we did, both 150 liter geysers, one a house of 2 people using 140l average per day, one a house of 4 people using 245l. The 2 person house used an average of 44 watts per liter, the bigger house used 36, with the standard coil. With the new coil this changed to 35 for the small house and 24 for the larger house. Savings of 20% and 33% respectively.
We are continuing field tests for the rest of this year to ensure that we can be confident of the savings in different situations. What has become very clear is that how you use the water (the draw off profile) and the amount used relative to the size of the geyser does have a significant impact. I am not an engineer. I am surrounded by them and none would believe a word of this. The evidence is clear and they are now gently baffled, but gaining belief.
We will launch early in 2017. We will have many customer testimonials with measured results. Northface will not sell a product that is not tested by us and proven effective.

[AndyD]

Hi Richard, welcome to the forum.

.....The issue with the argument about a specific amount of power heating a specific amount of water is that it does not take into account: standing losses and heating inefficiencies inherent in the current element structure.

It was already covered previously in this thread why a standard geyser element is already very close to being 100% efficient at converting electrical energy into heat energy and putting that heat energy into the water in a geyser. There are no 'heating inefficiencies inherrent in the current element structure'.

Standing losses are, as their name suggests, heat losses through the insulation over time as the hot water is standing. Standing losses of an insulated cylinder/geyser will be identical regardless of the type of element that initially heated the water.

You could, in theory, reduce standing losses by either heating the water to a lower final temperature or even by heating the water slower so the standing temperature is lower for longer but either way that's not about the 'type' of element, it's only about the power of the element being lower. The flip side of reducing the power of the element is that the water takes longer to heat so you're more likely to suffer with cold water during times of high demand.

In 2 test cases we did, both 150 liter geysers, one a house of 2 people using 140l average per day, one a house of 4 people using 245l. The 2 person house used an average of 44 watts per liter, the bigger house used 36, with the standard coil. With the new coil this changed to 35 for the small house and 24 for the larger house. Savings of 20% and 33% respectively.

If you're electrical energy consumption was reduced then either less volume of hot water was produced or the same volume was produced but it was at a lower temperature.

What has become very clear is that how you use the water (the draw off profile) and the amount used relative to the size of the geyser does have a significant impact.

Erm yes, if the 'draw off profile' has an effect on how much hot water is being consumed then yes it would have a significant impact on power consumption but I don't see the link between the 'draw off profile' and the element.

We will launch early in 2017. We will have many customer testimonials with measured results. Northface will not sell a product that is not tested by us and proven effective.

After a quick Google it appears Northface already have it for sale on their website;

Econocoil - efficient water heating



Save 20-40% of your water heating bill simply by changing to this element. Applies only to Kwikot 150l horizontal geysers.

Read more

The Econocoil minimises the heat losses and maximises the heating efficiency of the geyser. It does this by moving the heated part of the element further from the edge of the geyser and using convection to move the hot water to the more insulated part of the geyser.

3 month money back satisfaction guarantee
12 month warranty (extendable to 24 or 36 months)

The perfect time to install Econocoil is when your standard element breaks and needs replacing.

This is a product that allows people who cannot afford R15,000 or more for a solar system, to at least make a real dent in their heating expenses.

A couple of things confusing me here, firstly the claimed savings on the website go as high as 40%. Secondly the way it's claimed it saves energy is by moving the heated part of the element further from the edge of the geyser and using convection to move the hot water to the more insulated part of the geyser

So, by the element being a different shape it's possible to reduce electrical consumption by 40%...??? Bold claims indeed, call me a sceptic but I'd like to see the proof.

[richardpickering]

Thanks for the Welcome Andy D. I am not an expert as many of you on this forum clearly are. I am only an accountant and software guy, 12 months into the renewable space.
Obviously the Econocoil claims are bold. I have yet to meet anybody, myself included, who is not massively skeptical. Hence the fact that we are measuring performance in peoples homes. We only listed the product once we had the field results in. Lab results are consistent, but only lab results.

Every engineer I know has said it is not possible, or it is possible, but not to such a degree. We will be collecting more measured information as we install more units.
We are using water and power loggers on the geysers to ensure that data is available. If there is anybody on this forum who has a 150 or 200 l horizontal Kwikot I would love to offer you a free trial (with full metering) so we can get your views. We operate in Cape Town.

I will post additional results here as I get them. I would value anybody's input. Essentially I have evidence to date that it works. I need more as we will only sell something to our customers that does what it claims.
Essentially the point i think that is not being discussed sufficiently is that there is a big metal plate on the Kwikot. This loses far more hear than any other part of the geyser. Moving the heating process as well as the hot water from this point has a significant impact.
You are right to be skeptical. Who wants to test it out?! Free.

[AndyD]

......Essentially the point i think that is not being discussed sufficiently is that there is a big metal plate on the Kwikot. This loses far more hear than any other part of the geyser. Moving the heating process as well as the hot water from this point has a significant impact......

I'm not an expert on Kwikot 150 litre geysers but I will be in the next few days because I have an old one in my workshop that was left in the roof space by the bone idle lazy plumbers who replaced it under warranty last year and the first time I get a chance it will be disected on my workbench.

Reading between the lines here I'm guessing the big metal plate you're referring to may be an internal baffle inside the cylinder perhaps.

Any components inside the cylinder, including any metal plates, will have heat losses but those losses are determined by two things, the temperature difference between the internal cylinder and the surrounding environment and the quality of the insulation that surrounds the cylinder.

If there is an internal baffle plate then altering the length of the element could have a profound effect on the circulation of the water inside the geyser whilst it's being heated. It could have an effect on the temperature gradient between water at the bottom of the cylinder and water at the top. It could even result in a large percentage of the water in the cylinder remaining cold or cool due to lack of circulation during heating.

Regardless of the numerous possibilities one thing is certain, if the geyser is consuming less electricity with the new element arrangement then it's producing less hot water. Yes, the water that comes out when a tap is turned on may be at the same temperature that it was with the old element but there will be less of it available so during high demand times the geyser water will become cold sooner. You're effectively taking a 150litre geyser and turning it into one that only produces 120 litres or maybe 100 litres of hot water. Could it produce electricity savings? Maybe it could but I still doubt it would be even remotely close to the 40% claims and if its a family of four or five people there's a good chance a couple of them will be taking cold showers.

However you wiggle and jiggle the element in a geyser, any savings will be at a cost, you'll always end up robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[AbrieD]

Hi Andy,

I am doing plumbing for many years, and and energy efficient system still have to be developed.
This solar hype that started several years ago turned out to be just a new money making scheme.

Every solar heated system needs Escom backup, and the solar company advertising the BIG savings,
also require that a timer switch be installed and set to 2 hours morning and 2 hours afternoon heating.
So the real saving is the timer of R 300.00, and not so much the solar of R 20,000.00+

A company with the name Nu Inc ( http://nu-inc.co.za/nuthermo/titanium-elements/ ) then claim that their titanium
element, using PTC heating elements (ceramic chips), is the answer, saving up to 50%. With an additional benefit: lime does
not stick to titanium.
This area has heavy lime deposits, causing regular element failures, up to 5 times per year. I saw elements, that lasted more than a year,
with such heavy lime deposits, that the element could not be recognized as an element anymore.

As said before on this forum, the form of heating will not make a difference to the energy used.
Please take a look at this element, and tell me if you agree to what is claimed??

[Dave888]

Please let me have some pricing. Thanks.

dave@solarex.co.za