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Thread: Installation of 220V downlights

  1. #81
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    Wago's are brilliant they save so much time it's all I use now.

  2. #82
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    Revisiting this one.
    Regulation 6.3.7.3 indicates that "Any sheathing or armouring shall be terminated in or on equipment"
    In this picture the sheathing is not terminated in or on the equipment. The equipment is going to be terminated on the cores which is not allowed.

    Regulation 6.4.1 says that the cable may not be run within 150mm of hot services. I assume that this includes the hot 220v Dichroic (sp?)lamp
    If the lamp is an LED type which does not get as hot, then perhaps the 150mm requirement falls away?
    To make a mistake is human, to learn from that mistake is knowledge and knowledge is strength.

  3. #83
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    Hi
    I agree with the above statements and further - 6.3.7.1 shall be made in accordance with manufacturers instructions and 5.1 note 2 Manufacturers instructions may contain more stringent requirements.

    Having a look the other day at Aberdare cables Low Voltage Cable Range Brochure ed 4 - I noticed a note under T&E and Surfix - Joints in wiring shall be in boxes only - Puts an end to the argument of allowing strip connectors in a roof space.

    Copy and pasted below from the Brochure
    Installation Information
    Properties

    Copper conductors to SANS 1411 Part 1, PVC insulated to SANS 1411 Part 2, laid up with a bare copper earth-continuity-conductor
    between them, UV stable PVC sheathed to SANS 1411 Part 2.
    Complies with SANS 10142/2001“Code of Practice for the wiring of Premises” Section 6, Clause 6.3.6:
    • Surface wiring • Under-plaster wiring • Roof access wiring • Wiring in hollowwalls
    The cable shall not be buried direct in concrete or in screed. Joints in the wiring shall be in boxes only.

  4. #84
    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
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    To play devils advocate here I'd suggest only take manufacturers instructions from an official specification or data sheet or instruction sheet written for that specific product and/or supplied in the packaging with the product. I would class a brochure, a flyer or even a catalogue in many cases as sales and marketing material and as such I wouldn't refer to it for hard product data.

    I have a love/hate thing with manufacturers instructions.

    Many manufacturers supply instructions that aren't in grammatically correct English; if there's many typos or grammar mistakes or it's obviously been a half-assed translation job then you have to assume that anything written on there could be inaccurate or simply a typo.

    Sometimes they try to cover numerous different models of the same product with one supplied instruction sheet, this often leads to confusion or blatant contradictions in the instructions.

    Manufacturers have a nasty habit of pitching their instructions at the DIY'er which leads to over reaching with their instructions specifying things that aren't relevant to their actual product or things they generally should have no right to be legislating on. They often try to give a step by step guide instead of assuming the installer is qualified and only needs guidance specific to that product, not guidance on how to do the job he's already qualified in or guidance on cherry-picked installation regulations he's already fluent with.

    Instructions also can be far too generic ie they're written by the manufacturer in China or Europe and not edited to make them relevant for this country. Even with instructions that come as a 100 plus page booklet are divided into language only, it's assumed that the 20 pages of the 'English' version will cover accurately and relevantly every country on the planet that speaks English.

    Manufacturers have a habit of using their installation instructions as an excuse to advertise of generally showboat about how good their product is. They also have a tendancy to flood the document with rediculously obvious and unnecessary 'Safety Warnings' so you have to spend too much time combing through the drivel to actually find the relevant info. Often you'll find a 2 line snippet of crutial information hidden in the middle of 3 pages of detritus.

    If manufacturers instructions must be followed according to the regs then are you going to obtain and read those instructions for all the fixed appliances, electrical accessories and other components of the installation to check they've been complied with before issuing a CoC?

    Finally the availability of those instructions can be an issue. Often if you're not the original installer the only way you can get a copy of those instructions is by going onto the manufacturers technical portal, registering yourself with them for access then comb though thousands of data sheets to find the precise one for the product. This assumes it's not been discontinued in which case you go through the whole process again in the archived section for unsupported products. Often if the product is a rebranded Chinese item you'll never find who the original manufacturer actually is and even if you you do their website will only be in Manderin. If it's one of those 'knee jerk' imported products like those millions of generators that arrived her a few years ago or inverters for that matter...or reverse osmosis units or ph balancers that are appearing today in spectacular numbers because of the water shortages, chances are it arrives with the opportunist importers own brand name on it and tomorrow the importer is nowhere to be found.

    There should be legislation and minimum requirements governing the quality of manufacturers instructions and enforcement thereof before they're held as being the golden standard that must be obeyed by the electrical installation regs. Secondly there should be a requirement that either the owner of the product must keep the original instructions for future reference or there must be a public web page address printed on the sticker on the product itself where the manufacturer legally must make available the installation instructions along with the user manual and any additional information on revised recommendations or product recall in future should it be necessary as well. Finally every product should carry in plain sight the name of the actual manufacturer for future reference, not just the importers or local agents chosen brand name.
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  5. #85
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    Fair enough Andy, but the stipulations that GCE is quoting from the brochure appear to have been taken directly from the SANS Regulations.

  6. #86
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    Hi

    I have to agree that some manufactures instructions are obscure with translations and need a degree in languages before you can decipher

    Maybe Brochure was the incorrect terminology - The brochure is a collection of data sheets / specifications that we all use to check current ratings and is readily available from there website as a data sheet.
    It is the same data sheet that contractors are quick to produce to prove that T&E is UV stabilized and can therefore be used in direct sunlight.

    I have attached the "data "sheet out of interest
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #87
    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
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    I'm sure the statement in the datasheet about the acceptable installation methods are directly from the SANS regs (6.3.6.2 amdt3 onwards) but I'd still question whether manufacturers should be quoting cherry picked regs in their literature. Firstly there's no context when they do that and then there's the big question are they going to promptly update their literature if the regs are changed by a later ammendment? Say for example the regs are changed at a later date and it becomes permissible to install direct in concrete or screed, the confusion then would be whether there might be a product related reason that particular cable that still can't be done. For example is the blend of PVC insulation incompatible with direct prolonged contact with cement? Surely it would be better just to directly state product information and data and leave the decisions about suitable installation methods up to electricians who should be qualified to make those decisions.
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  8. #88
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    I'm still banging on this old drum.
    The attached picture shows a downlight connected in an improper way, in my opinion.
    It flaunts 6.3.7.3, there is no way to terminate the cable on the sheathing.
    The termination box is being used as a connection box, there should only be one cable in there.
    The earth's are not connected at all.
    I did an exhaustive survey recently and I I battled to find a downlight that had a clamp for the cable. See pictures 2 and 3 which are one make and 4 and 5 which are another.


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  9. #89
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    I am yet to see that piece of metal hanging off the lampholder ...fitted on the actual downlight after installation.

    It is simple you fit a tail with 1 piece of twin + E into the light connector and install a wago 221-4 junction box in the roof ...by the time you have paid around R36 per the maintenance fre box ... problem solved... i dont know that you will get the job if quoting against anyone.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  10. #90
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    Excellent Ian's! The first time I've seen this Wago box. That is definitely the solution. Where can one buy them and the cost?

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