A case for RE companies

[AndyD]

The apparent size of the 'poor white' group in SA has been mentioned to be around 650,000, against a total 'white' population arguably under 2 million. If these numbers are correct, then this is a substantial percentage living below the poverty line & should be considered something very out of the ordinary (~32.5%), relative to similar populations internationally.

I'm not convinced that the 650,000 figure you quote is correct. I spent a while researching white poverty in SA and have come across a figure of 450,000 being used a few times recently in articles (1) (2) about white poverty but this figure was one issued by the largely white trade union Solidarity. This figure is considerably less than the 600,000 but considering its origin I would expect it's still on the high side. The only reference to 600,00 I found is here and is hardly an unbiased source.

Also to cite BEE or affirmative action as the cause of this white poverty you would need to compare it with figures from 1994-5 when these policies started in earnest and establish a trend in increased white poverty compared to the same period before 1994-5.

I have no doubt that white poverty has increased, if blacks are earning more now than they were it can only be at the expense of the white or coloured communities, I'm just questioning how much this is the case.

[desA]

Thanks AndyD. I had read the figure of ~ 650k in the last month. I'll try to find the link.

Does anyone have figures on the number of light-green residents still in SA?

[Dave A]

Maybe these demographics from the 2007 census might help.

[desA]

Thanks DaveA - that is perfect.

[Pap_sak]

Personally, I have no pity for poor whites. There are still plenty of jobs out there if you are prepared to work hard and use your kop. About 5 years ago my wife and myself where hard up and we worked as waiters at a local Spur. Hard, hard work ( in a couple of months I lost 7kg's, we call it the spur diet!) but at least we had some cash coming in. With in a couple of weeks the owners wanted to put both of us on a fast track manager course. During this time quite a few whites joined but could not hack the hard work, even though this was a rural area with high unemployment - it seemed for many of them sitting at home and complaining was preferable to getting of their butts.

I do agree that it is slightly unfair that public sector jobs are generally reserved for BEE, but how else will we start building a dark green middle class, which IMO, is much, much more important than having a few disgruntled light greens, that cannot seem to hack the work in the private sector, even with better education.

[desA]

Personally, I have no pity for poor whites. There are still plenty of jobs out there if you are prepared to work hard and use your kop. About 5 years ago my wife and myself where hard up and we worked as waiters at a local Spur. Hard, hard work ( in a couple of months I lost 7kg's, we call it the spur diet!) but at least we had some cash coming in. With in a couple of weeks the owners wanted to put both of us on a fast track manager course. During this time quite a few whites joined but could not hack the hard work, even though this was a rural area with high unemployment - it seemed for many of them sitting at home and complaining was preferable to getting of their butts.

Excellent. Good on you & your wife. I have no sympathy for lazy slobs. If the offer is made & turned down, then so be it. Different though for the many youngsters who study, then search for 6-odd months - with no success, because they are the incorrect colour of green.

If you want to witness the effects of what affirmative action can do to universities, I'd invite you to visit some faculties at the former Natal University. The people who have had to climb in & fix the aftermath of the ensuing chaos are on 1 year contracts - working out of their retirement.

I do agree that it is slightly unfair that public sector jobs are generally reserved for BEE, but how else will we start building a dark green middle class, which IMO, is much, much more important than having a few disgruntled light greens, that cannot seem to hack the work in the private sector, even with better education.

Whose job is it to build a dark green middle class? Based on the fair method of the 'best person' gets the job - not the 'correct shade' gets the job, things would build naturally, in their own time, without excessive skewing & imbalance. This was the essence of the 'New South Africa', after all. Much of this seems to have sadly been forgotten, it seems.

[AndyD]

During this time quite a few whites joined but could not hack the hard work, even though this was a rural area with high unemployment - it seemed for many of them sitting at home and complaining was preferable to getting of their butts.

It's not just a white trait to rather sit at home and hold out the hand for handouts rather than be proactive when it comes to finding work.

Whose job is it to build a dark green middle class? Based on the fair method of the 'best person' gets the job - not the 'correct shade' gets the job, things would build naturally, in their own time, without excessive skewing & imbalance. This was the essence of the 'New South Africa', after all. Much of this seems to have sadly been forgotten, it seems.

Affirmative action is a tool to assist with redressing a historical imbalance. It should have a definate life span after which it would become inverse racism.

Most would agree that society was heavily weighted in favour of whites after the apartheid years and that something would need to be done to create a fairer balance and that this would be at the cost of the previously privilaged section of society.

I think that the differences in opinion come with the lifespan issue of BEE. Should the lifespan have an actual time limit or should it be a lifespan measured in results rather than years? If it's a results based issue then it's going to be a long policy because at the moment BEE is very sucessful and efficient in creating a new black elite but it's results are questionable when it comes to empowerment of the black majority.

[Pap_sak]

DesA, my father works a Jhb Uni, so yes, I have heard plenty of stories, non of them really good. As to whose job is it to build a new middle class, well, the elected government, and it seems they are doing it, too slow for some and too quick for others.

I get as mad with corruption and the way tenders are handed out, and lack of service as any other sane Saffer (my biggest gripe is population control, I can be quite right wing on that topic!), but I still don't mind that AA takes place for some government positions because without a larger, taxed middle class, this country is going now where slowly.

Off course, I live in a small, DA controlled town, where everything works...the other day I even got a new prepaid telkom line in 3 days, where renewing a driving license takes 5 minutes, and all staff are all pretty friendly - maybe if I lived in my home town of Randburg I would not feel this way. But hey, we all have choices.

[adrianh]

Lets look at it from another angle:

say there are 48 million people in the country.
say 10 million jobs,
say 8 million were held by whites.
say 3 million whites left.
say BEE put 3 million whites out of work.

now, there are still 10 million jobs.
now 2 million whites are employed.
now 8 million others are employed.

So whats left
42 million others are still unemployed.
3 million whites are out of work.

The bottom line

1. If you were to take away every single job from every single white in this country, you still do not have enough jobs to keep 50% of the population busy.
2. BEE fails in that it simply moves power from the hands of one to the hands of others, but it does not create any new jobs.
3. I agree with DesA, as small businesses we are the only people who are able to give "our own" oppertunities because we are not forced to comply to some bulltwang colourful scorecard.

Viva CDRE Viva