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Thread: The Great Crime Debate

  1. #11
    just me duncan drennan's Avatar
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    With regards to the pulled FNB campaign, see Alec Hoggs article on Moneyweb
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  2. #12
    just me duncan drennan's Avatar
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    South Africans fear crime more than ever

    There is an article on MoneyWeb by JP Landman, "South Africans fear crime more than ever".

    I'd say he is quite well balanced in his approach to talking about the crime issue.

    So starting with two facts,

    The first point is that South Africans have never felt as vulnerable and fearful of crime as now. Two sources confirm it: victim surveys from the Institute for Security Studies (ISS) as well as research from the HSRC. Questions are asked like: are you more/less afraid at night; are you afraid to travel alone; do you travel at night and so on. The overwhelming response to these questions is that citizens are more fearful than previously. The conclusion is clear: citizens' perceptions of crime are that it has deteriorated - matters got worse.

    The second empirical fact is that several categories of crime have declined. A critic of the government and certainly no friend of the Mbeki administration, The SA Institute for Race Relations (SAIRR), reported that eight of 12 crime categories have declined over the period 1994/5 to 2005/6. This is confirmed by victim surveys. In victim surveys official stats are ignored and a sample of the population is asked if they experienced crime, what types of crime, how often and so on. These victim surveys confirm the official stats the SAIRR used.
    There are some other interesting points on who crime affects, and how many perpetrators are linked to their victims (friends/family) - read the article for the details of those.

    I think I found this the most interesting,

    If the age group 15 and 29 in a society is more than 30% of the total population, violence follows (Caldwell, Fin Times, January 5 2007). There are 67 countries in the world with such "youth bulges" now - and 60 of them are undergoing some kind of serious killing, civil war, insurgency and so on. According to the latest Actuarial Society of SA demographic projections (released late in December), precisely 30% of the SA's population are now in the age cohort 15 - 29.
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  3. #13
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    I find the comment on "social capital" the most relevant - and probably the source of our unease as a society. I suspect we can sense this lack in society.
    In 81% of murder cases the murderer knew the victim. In other words only in 19% of murders was the victim unknown to the murder. In the case of rape the numbers are 76% v 24%; and serious assault 89% v 11%. These come from an analysis of 2005/6 crime stats. Is this the normal way citizens treat one another?

    The same lack of societal values is indicated by an opinion poll in the Sunday Times that 1/3 of all South Africans experience road rage. Nice, tolerant way of interacting with one another, would you not agree?

    There is something seriously wrong with our society's social capital.
    I disagree the thought that government and police can't affect this social capital, though.
    No degree of police efficiency can deal with this. No amount of shouting at politicians can cure this. The sooner we start focusing on social capital, the sooner we can deal with this problem.
    Our elected political representatives and police need to be role models, and let's be honest - are they?

    Some yes. And some, most definitely not!

    I attended a session where the speaker was talking about the importance of how we are socialised. For example, grow up in a gang environment and the chances increase that you will live by gang values. Grow up in a law-abiding environment, and the chances increase that you will abide by and respect the law. Of course, we're talking a shift in the average - it's far from absolute and there are more than enough upstanding, perfectly law-abiding citizens who are products of the most horrific social environments. And less than scrupulous people who grew up in a more nurturing environment.

  4. #14
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Clearly, not all crime stats are going down.
    The crime most feared in South Africa is housebreaking, according to a survey recently conducted for the National Prosecuting Authority.

    "The reason is the fear that the burglary will take place while the residents are on the premises," said Andre du Toit, acting director for public prosecutions in the Free State. He was addressing a symposium on serious and violent crime in Bloemfontein on Wednesday.

    "One can avoid dangerous areas and prevent robbery, but you cannot stay away from your house."

    Du Toit said it was disturbing that only 1% of reported housebreakings went to court. It was well known that the best deterrent to crime was that the perpetrator would be caught.

    "The possibility is almost non-existent concerning housebreaking."

    Du Toit said robbery was one of the serious crimes that was reported the least.

    The public's impression that crime was out of control could largely be attributed to the increase in robberies since 1994, to the violent nature of robberies and to the "new-phenomenon" robberies.

    These included cash-in-transit robberies, which replaced bank robberies after banks improved their security. Others are vehicle hijacks, house robberies -– people storming into a house and robbing the residents -– and "shopping mall" robberies.

    In regard to murder, Du Toit said inquests revealed a cause for concern. In 2005 792 inquests were received, and in 2006 there were 789.

    "When these [inquests] are analysed, further disturbing statistics were found. During 2005 about 270 investigations and in 2006 about 300 inquests found that a person was responsible for the death of the victims, but prosecution cannot start because witnesses cannot be found.

    "This means in these two years there were 577 murders where the murderers cannot be prosecuted."

    Du Toit said there was great concern in the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) about the increase in crime.
    from M&G here

  5. #15
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    South Africa should not see itself as the "criminal skunk" of the world, because many other countries in transition had the same high crime prevalence.

    Dap Louw, a psychology professor at the University of the Free State, said South Africans should also not develop a "learned helplessness syndrome" -- characterised by powerlessness and incapability in the fight against crime.

    "A positive national self-image should be promoted to combat the cynicism, distrust and depression that dis-empower South Africans to actively participate in the fight of crime," Louw, also a renowned criminologist, said during a symposium in Bloemfontein on violent crimes on Wednesday.

    "We can do something about it instead of just talking about it around braais."

    Louw said the present crime situation in South Africa should be put in perspective because this was something the South African media "clearly did not specialise in".

    "We lived in an abnormal society [apartheid]; now we live in a normal society in a country in transition."

    Louw said other transitional countries who had experienced the same crime situation as South Africa were Russia, Estonia, Cambodia and Poland.

    Louw said the media in other non-transitional countries like America, Wales, England and Australia had also reported on "concerns" of an increase of violent crime in 1996.

    "These people are in the same boat as you and me," Louw said, himself also a crime victim, having being stabbed twice in the back.

    Looking at the causes of crime, Louw said South Africans should not look further than themselves and must stop pointing fingers at others.

    Louw quoted 19th century French criminologist Jean Lacassagne, who said: "Every society gets the number of criminals it deserves."

    Referring to the environmental causes of crime, Louw said that in South Africa he would add to this quote the words "the kind of criminals it deserves" if one looked at the state of the country's children.

    "Approximately 40% of our children live in poverty, about 100 000 children are projected to die from Aids in the next ten years, two million [will be] orphaned and 30% of the reported cases of suicidal behaviour involve children."

    At least 1 000 children were murdered every year, 20 000 were raped each year [40% of all rape cases], while millions were emotionally and physically abused and neglected by parents and other adults.

    "Today's children are not only tomorrow's adults, they are also tomorrow's criminals."

    Louw was of the opinion that alcohol's role in crime and accidents was under-reported in the country, although 60% of all crime was already attributed to alcohol.

    Poverty alleviation and social upliftment should form part of any crime-prevention strategy. Other factors include research, the targeting of less serious offences "creating a zero-tolerance effect", the involvement of communities and the empowering victims.

    Although violent crime was regarded as South Africa's foremost threat, scientific data was scarce, Louw said.

    Also speaking at the symposium was Human Rights Commissioner Leon Wessels, who said the crime situation had caused the number of initial supporters for the abolishing of the death penalty to shrink.

    However, he said it was not likely that the death penalty would come back within the "life time" of the current government.

    Wessels said there was enough room within the Constitution to tackle the crime situation.

    Chairperson of the Civil Society Initiative, Roelf Meyer, agreed that crime with a "violent element" should be researched. Reasons for the "mindset" must be found.

    Meyer said ways of improving the crime situation include involving the private sector in police training, proper and good management of policing at grassroots level and getting civil society involved.
    from M&G here

  6. #16
    just me duncan drennan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    Chairperson of the Civil Society Initiative, Roelf Meyer, agreed that crime with a "violent element" should be researched. Reasons for the "mindset" must be found.
    This is the thing that eats me when I think about this whole topic, the big why, particularly with regards to violent crime. There must be something that we as a whole are doing (or have done) wrong, and there is this constant question of, "How can I change and act to improve this?" and "How do I help to accelerate the positive change?"
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  7. #17
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    My personal opinion on why so violent?

    Desensitization!

    Television, movies, news, newspapers, magazines, playgrounds, rugby fields, soccer fields, family violence, government, the household, the township, the corner shop. We see it and hear it all the time. VIOLENCE and total disrespect. So do our kids. The more you hear and see it, the more "natural" it becomes!

    Imagine being born to a 16 year old, jobless person, sitting around the fire and hearing the screams around you from day 1. People, family and friends enter and leave your life all the time, daily, due to crime, AIDS, violence, strike action, accidents and other reasons associated with every day life.

    How can you NOT think this is the norm? With good parenting? But what if you parents believed this to be the norm?
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    Exclamation The DP Team

    Yes dave Rattery and that guy will be walking in 18 years who killed him go look ate my site under prison title only 18 years and find what happened

    If there is anybody out there who can and will help me in the fight against crime please do so.
    Lets just stop the blabbering and do something toward the future of all of us and support me in helping raped and violated victims.
    Have a look at www.death-penalty.co.za or mail me on info@death-penalty.co.za for help mail me at help@death-penalty.co.za
    As,, please send me your comment to 36018 NB sms must start with "DP"
    All msg's will be posted on my site every 48 hour.
    From there we will take the comments and work with it in public so that everybody can give us their oppinion and we will find a way to live and work together. We did not ask to be here we are here so lets make the best of it and work together. It will make life easier for everybody.
    The Team at DP South Africa...

  9. #19
    Silver Member Graeme's Avatar
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    No Work = Crime?

    The hijacking of one of Dave’s work crews, whilst evincing feelings of outrage, lead on reflection to having us wondering why violent crime has gotten such a hold in SA.

    The apologists will say that it is because there is no work, therefore people resort to crime. Others will counter that there was work in rural areas but it was hard going and many found it easier to drift into the cities, build a shack and see what was to be found there. Others will say that they were driven out of tribal areas because there was no longer room for them there. And labour legislation that makes it almost impossible to discipline or fire workers means that hiring has come to a screeching halt.

    Whatever - they are here now, they cannot find work, and they won’t be sent back to the places they came from.

    Israel was faced with a similar problem (but without the crime) when it was founded - refugees from a shattered Europe migrated by the hundreds of thousands to the new State of Israel and having got there, housing and work had to be found for huge numbers of them. Israel met this challenge by establishing the Kibbutz system, which provided both work, housing (and except for a tiny minority of frontier Kibbutzes, a good place to bring up children) for countless thousands of people, both singles and family units. And much of the system soon turned a nice profit as well, which was theirs to keep and was and is used for improvements; the answer to that lies in the kibbutznicks’ own hands.

    Could not, should not, this system be tried here? Given the political will, these places should not be too difficult to establish - we have the land, we certainly have the money; the cost of a couple of modern fighter aircraft that no one here has the skills to fly would pay for the establishment of dozens of them. And if there are those who are not prepared to roll up their sleeves and work in the Kibbutz system but prefer instead to remain in the Cities to live a life of shack dwelling indolence, disease, begging, welfare support and crime, then they should be dealt with harshly - the no-work excuse falls away.

  10. #20
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    It seems the tide is far from turning. The latest crime stats have got the opposition parties up in arms.
    The latest crime statistics released on Tuesday prove crime is out of control despite government assurances to the contrary, opposition parties said.

    "We are alarmed at the increase in murder [2,4%], the 118% increase in bank robberies, 52,5% increase in robberies at business premises, the 21,9% increase in cash-in-transit heists and the sharp increase in robberies at residential premises [25,4%]," Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) spokesperson Velaphi Ndlovu said in a statement.

    "It once again proves without doubt that crime is out of control in South Africa and that the levels of crime remain alarmingly high, despite empty government promises," he said.

    The IFP believed it again highlighted the need for increased visible policing at banks, business premises, shopping malls and within residential areas.

    Dianne Kohler-Barnard of the Democratic Alliance (DA) said the figures made a mockery of Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula's assurances to foreign business that the crime rate was under control.

    There had been some reported decreases, such as attempted murder (3%), rape (5,2%) and indecent assault (5,5%), but because the absolute figures were not yet available, actual performance to previous years could not be compared, she said.

    The Freedom Front Plus's Pieter Mulder agreed the statistics confirmed the public's view that crime was increasing and getting out of control.

    "These statistics make South Africa an unsafe country to live in."

    The increase in robberies at residential properties, murder, robberies with aggravated circumstances, and carjackings were especially upsetting.

    The world average for murder was five per 100 000 of the population, but in South Africa it was 40,5 per 100 000 -- eight times the world average.

    "In spite of this [Nqakula] says that crime is under control and the outlook appears to be rosy.

    "As long as the minister stays in this state of denial, crime will not be properly combated," Groenewald said.

    Dr Johan Burger, senior researcher at the Institute for Security Studies in Pretoria, told the Mail & Guardian Online on Tuesday that while the figures were in line with expectations, the increase in violent crimes -- most of which had consistently decreased over the last 13 years -- was particularly disturbing.

    He said that aggravated robbery, which showed a positive downward trend from a high in 2003, seems also to have taken a turn for the worse.

    Robberies at business premises increased by 52,5% and robberies at residential premises increased by 25,4%.

    Burger said the increase in house robberies was one of the "most serious as far as people's perceptions are concerned".

    Nqakula said that aggravated robberies have had a devastating effect on the psyche of the nation,

    Armed robbery increased by 4,6%, with the biggest proportion (72,7%) street robberies, where dangerous weapons were used, the police report shows.

    "Given that those robberies are accompanied by bloodletting where heavy calibre firearms are used by organised criminal gangs and that innocent bystanders are often caught in the cross-fire, and the fact that these incidents happen in broad daylight, on our roads and streets and around banks and shopping malls, they've had a devastating effect on the psyche of the nation."

    Nqakula also said that a study was under way to determine why two thirds of all serious and violent crimes happened between people who knew each other and why there was so much violent crime in South Africa.

    "The fact that instances of serious and violent crime are very high is disconcerting and unacceptable," said Nqakula.
    full story from M&G here

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