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Thread: Labour on release of Employment Equity Report to M Mdladlana by J Manyi

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muzi Oscar
    By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race.

    I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.
    Dave: Not yet, thats why it was in last year report. But all groups will eventually - one by one - come to an end. That's the goal. Who comes out means they are fairly represented.

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    Dave A (19-Sep-09)

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    I've wondered at times how much Steve Biko's statements were aimed at changing how people see themselves rather than commenting on how they perceive others to see them.

    Eleanor Roosevelt's comment - "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." is so true. And self-image is such a powerful part of Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech.

    I find commentary that whites see themselves as superior quite disturbing. Sure, there are some whites that might hold those thoughts even today, but it's the exception rather than the rule. I really get a sense that Steve Biko was bigger than that. He was viewed as a threat by the old regime precisely because he didn't have an inferiority complex; that was his power.
    Last edited by Dave A; 19-Sep-09 at 08:07 AM.

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    Muzi
    You seem hell bent on saying the current path of BEE etc. is the only way. Do you not have any other way forward to offer?
    Only stress when you can change the outcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanF View Post
    Muzi
    You seem hell bent...
    Let's go gently, please. I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.

    One of my criticisms of BEE implementation as we have seen it is trying to rush results before their time. Let's avoid making a similar error here.

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    Dave:
    quote "I find commentary that whites see themselves as superior quite disturbing. Sure, there are some whites that might hold those thoughts even today, but it's the exception rather than the rule. I really get a sense that Steve Biko was bigger than that. He was viewed as a threat by the old regime precisely because he didn't have an inferiority complex; that was his power".

    I am not saying all whites see them selves that way. But if anti-blacks quotes like Mr Mbeki's are used to undermine all black people, Liberated black people will defend...
    We need to remember that White Supremacy was fought against by mainly white countries in world war II (though it was dubbed Fascism, Hitler was a white supremacist).
    And Black supremacy was fought by black people like Martin Luther king & Malcom X (remember Malcom X was killed by his own people in The Nation of Islam because (like Steve Biko) he was against any "Supremacy" black or white.
    But if you listened to speeches that were given at Michael Jackson's memorial you must have noticed the Black Supremacy element from that Pastor (forgot his name). It made me uncomfortable like white supremacy makes you. But can we deny that it is there? I don't think so. We need to challange it and opportunist charecteristics that turn anything to racial devide (like those that use Mr Mbeki's quotes to undermine black people).

    BEE is not a racial devide as it is perceived. Its groups includes, whites, africans, indians, mixed race, chinese, etc......

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    Moderator IanF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzi Oscar View Post
    Quote:I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.
    Dave: Not yet, thats why it was in last year report. But all groups will eventually - one by one - come to an end. That's the goal. Who comes out means they are fairly represented.
    Muzi
    If you use your crystal ball do you see 50 years in the future that there will be a program for white males who have legally been discriminated against since democracy. Will this process go the full circle and just perpetuate itself?
    Anyway I vote for a normal society where we look past race etc. and just get on with life
    Only stress when you can change the outcome!

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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    When you read this story around Obama and the Republican resistance to his healthcare proposals, you wonder if it will ever come to an end.

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    "Eleanor Roosevelt's comment - "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." is so true. " It is true, but if you look at Southern African context where black people had 12 years of mental conditioning to thinking they did not contribute to civilazation and were less intellectually capable - I am talking about Bantu Education, false history (they mistrify who built Pyramids in Egyt, ruined walls in Zimbabwe, stolen ancient books from Mali found in Engalnd, Mining activies in Mapungubwe, Egyptian collection museum in Berlin that Arab Egyptians will never make an effort to claim cause it does not have Arabs, hiding race of invetors [traffic lights, escalators, light bulbs,etc.] etc.).

    We can't say black people gave consent in all these instances now, can we? You can not deny that history has succeeded in undermining the black race. And not every black person will search for truths in history. Some will fall in cracks like Mr Mbeki....

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    Platinum Member Marq's Avatar
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    I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.
    Dave - I think we are a bit beyond that here. Muzi has done nothing to get to know anyone and has accused me of various racial slants from the start, refuses to accept that another side actually exists. Its a pity that he is not able to defend bee and aa policy without that personal attack and jibe every time or being able to see beyond its real motives or understand the effects it really is having on other race groups.

    A typical blinkered view, introducing race superiority and supremacy into a debate that does not call for it, offering nothing to defend the policies besides revenge for the past, convinced that it includes all when it does not and offering nothing as an alternative, having completely missed the point. It is a stubborn stance, dragging the past forward into the future as a result of racial fear, no different to the apartheid regime. It perpetuates racial tension and does not allow sight into the issues at hand for a real new South Africa where all can play a part and live in harmony.
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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.
    OK. Let's try putting this another way.

    In order for us to have a constructive discussion, we need to focus on playing the ball rather than the man. It gets a bit tricky in this instance because a big part of this is about personal paradigms.

    I don't want to stunt an open debate, but I don't want it to degenerate into a slanging match either.

    May I simply ask that we're careful about assuming too much of each other.

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