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Thread: Pool pump DB, fixed appliance or sub DB

  1. #21
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting one we had to deal with recently.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	socket-outlet-for-pool- pump.jpg 
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ID:	8476

    This socket outlet is under a pool pump cover and supplies the pool motor. It is on a "plugs" circuit and without doubt part of the electrical installation.
    Does it need to be in a weather resistant enclosure or is the fact that it is under a pool pump cover enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    I did say the "lockable isolator in DB" was a can of worms

    But they are lockable and I don't recall the SANS code saying anything about "subject to general availability of locking devices".

    My favourite article on the subject remains this one on disconnecting devices by Cecil Lancaster.
    I have seen some bad outcomes when contractors have taken those articles to heart instead of treating them as comically , which I am sure was the intention

    The lockable argument and discussion has been had many times and I tend to agree with the AIA viewpoint that if you cant put your padlock on without extra mods then it is not lockable.

    It would be like booking into a hotel and they tell you that the door is lockable , you just need to supply your own locking mechanism , the holes are all in place for mechanism type FUT023

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    A few current options after a quick search.
    From ACDC
    From Voltex

    There's a model that's been used extensively in most domestic installations in Durban for many years. When I come across a photo of one, I must remember to post it.
    Always seen those sockets just been used as a garden type socket outlet for weed eater- have not seen the pump plugged in - I am almost sure that the timer is not wire to the socket

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    Here's an interesting one we had to deal with recently.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	socket-outlet-for-pool- pump.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	82.0 KB 
ID:	8476

    This socket outlet is under a pool pump cover and supplies the pool motor. It is on a "plugs" circuit and without doubt part of the electrical installation.
    Does it need to be in a weather resistant enclosure or is the fact that it is under a pool pump cover enough?
    I would say the socket needs to be fitted inside a weather proof enclosure that is fixed to the structure .

    If the pool pump cover is fitted on a hinge type fitting making it a fixture like a roof that swings open then I may let it pass
    A loose pool pump cover I would not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    Here's an interesting one we had to deal with recently.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	socket-outlet-for-pool- pump.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	82.0 KB 
ID:	8476

    This socket outlet is under a pool pump cover and supplies the pool motor. It is on a "plugs" circuit and without doubt part of the electrical installation.
    Does it need to be in a weather resistant enclosure or is the fact that it is under a pool pump cover enough?
    I was recently told that my IP 44 rated DB was not sufficient ... because in was on the verandah under the roof out of direct sunlight at the correct height ... with a main switch and additional earth leakage protection for circuits fed from the Sub DB ... I was told by the inspector of the new owner that an IP 65 rated DB was required ... I told him to report me to the AIA.

    So just in case I sent a picture of the location ... the DB with the frosted flap cover ... with all the blanks fitted and correct labelling (fed from ... ka rating ... feed cable size) and the drawings of the location of each circuit highlighted by circuit number and the plug and light number ... with the list of material used for each circuit ... ie : twin+E 2.5 mm buried at 500 mm in a pvc conduit below ground level protected by aluminum U channel where they surface to prevent mechanical damage by a weed eater or the like ... and a copy of the supplementary COC and test report pending the customers initial COC (which was not handed to the customer until I receive the intial) ... all to the AIA.

    By the way the supplementary COC is no longer required because someone else did a house sale COC
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  6. #26
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCE View Post
    I would say the socket needs to be fitted inside a weather proof enclosure that is fixed to the structure .

    If the pool pump cover is fitted on a hinge type fitting making it a fixture like a roof that swings open then I may let it pass
    A loose pool pump cover I would not
    You and I are of like mind on this one.

    It came to my attention as a call-back from the purchaser. Her complaint was that it should be water resistant because when they backwashed the pool, there was a water leak that led to water splashing on the socket outlet. I told her that I had no duty in respect of the leak that led to the splashing, but I was uncomfortable with the socket outlet (clearly being part of the electrical installation) only being protected by the loose pool cover.

    We put it into an Albro weatherproof box large enough to accommodate the plug-in timer at our own expense.
    School fees...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    Here's an interesting one we had to deal with recently.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	socket-outlet-for-pool- pump.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	82.0 KB 
ID:	8476

    This socket outlet is under a pool pump cover and supplies the pool motor. It is on a "plugs" circuit and without doubt part of the electrical installation.
    Does it need to be in a weather resistant enclosure or is the fact that it is under a pool pump cover enough?
    Today while connecting a light in a "pool" DB ... this picture got me thinking ... what is the difference between this socket outlet and an exposed socket outlet on the side of a "pool" DB?
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  8. #28
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    You never too old to learn ... you read the regs with regards to a swimming pool and there is mention of zone 0 and zone 1 and 2 ... zone 1 is a vertical plane of 2 m from the rim of the basin ... however if you install a light ... you need to read the regs with regards to luminaires 7.2.4.5.1... a light cannot be within 2.5 m of the water surface.

    This just gets a whole lot more interesting ... what about a pool pump and DB ... if referred to as a fixed appliances. I have seen small fibreglass pumps connected directly to the side of the pool.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  9. #29
    Gold Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ians View Post
    I have seen small fibreglass pumps connected directly to the side of the pool.
    They are double insulated similar to those used in aquariums and water features.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCE View Post
    The double pole as lockable in the DB without a fixed lockable device on the circuit breaker , in my opinion will not count - How does the pool guy have a CB isolator device

    With regards to COC , it is still required under 6.16.1.10 same as a light fitting is not part of the coc but if the wiring is exposed you need to rectify , eg covers missing from fluorescent channels


    6.16.1.10 The wiring between different parts of a fixed appliance that are
    installed separately is part of the fixed installation, even where it is supplied
    from a socket-outlet, unless such wiring is less than 3 m in length.
    Such wiring shall be protected by separate overload protection unless its
    current-carrying capacity is such that the circuit protection of the socket-outlet
    circuit will provide protection or that part of the appliance has built-in thermal
    overload protection.
    NOTE Where the length of wiring exceeds 3 m, the impedance and the functioning of
    the protective devices need to be considered to satisfy the overcurrent protection
    requirements in this part of SANS 10142.
    On a new install or a relocation of the pool DB, the electrician will supply the cable from the main DB to the pool DB, carry out all the tests required and issue a COC for the cable and DB.

    There should be no need for a double pole isolator before the pool DB. The pool guy should have no reason to work in the pool DB, The pump is fitted with a plug top, which can be removed and makes it safe to work on or replace. That is why connecting a pump cable directly into a pool DB should not be allowed. He can replace the light because the light is fed from a 12 VAC safety supply. The pool guy should not be working in the pool DB for any reason. IF the circuit breaker or timer needs to be replaced, it should be done by a qualified electrician.

    The fibre glass cover over the pool pump, changes all the rules and regs, just like a sauna. All sorts of zones apply to saunas, however as soon as you fit a cover over the electrical and controls, the zones regs no longer apply.

    Just imagine trying to pass a pool DB installation without a cover, most pool DB's I have seen are within 3.5 m of the pool surface.

    Adding circuits to the pool DB is no different, so long as you apply all the zone regs, the pool DB is still the pool DB/sub DB. People manipulate the regs to suit their application.

    The same as the pic Dave posted with the socket, if the socket outlet is under the pump cover, its doesnt need to be a weather proof socket outlet. If it was not allowed than literally every pool pump installation would fail, due to the IP rating of the socket on the side of the pool DB.

    What is important to note - The plug for the pump and anything else, like a chlorinator must have a means to remove the device without opening the DB.

    The light can be replaced by the pool guy even if the power is not isolated, because it is fed from a safety supply.

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