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Thread: COC and test report

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ians View Post
    After many hours of reading the new ed 3.1 regs ... I realised that Annexure 1 is missing.

    There is a test report which includes medical and hazardous locations ... but no actual COC in accordance with 7(1) of the electrical installation regulations 2009.

    Yes, correct. Ed 3 did not intend on changing EI nor can a Standard supercede a Reg. The Reg is still as of EI of 2009.

    Which I have noted in another thread ... the "test report" (not inspection report)

    DO you still need a COC as per Annexure 1 or do you just issue a test report ?

    Indeed, one still needs a one pager COC as per Annex 1 of the Electrical Installation Regulations of 2009 and that has not been changed.

    I am still issuing the old 4 page yellow document and nobody seems to object. I still have a2 books of them from back when I bought a pile of them.

    The correct thing would be to use the COC, which Annex 1 and attach New Test report as per Ed 3.

    So when a customer contacts you for a COC ... do they just get a test report ?
    Annex 1 of the EI and the new test report as per Ed 3. Operational as at 1 August 2021 , 12 months from publication of the 2020 Ed 3.

    A note

    Indeed, there is a room for improvement in information dissemination regarding changes to these standards. It's a challenge to us in the industry to have forums and platforms where we try to make sense of these changes.

    Unfortunately, writing and researching about OHS is a bit limited, there is need for conscientisation from supply utilities, users including estate agents as well as competent persons.

    We need to write more about it outside confines of the Associations.

    Not sure if I have used this App quote appropriately ...

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sytcee View Post
    Annex 1 of the EI and the new test report as per Ed 3. Operational as at 1 August 2021 , 12 months from publication of the 2020 Ed 3.

    A note

    Indeed, there is a room for improvement in information dissemination regarding changes to these standards. It's a challenge to us in the industry to have forums and platforms where we try to make sense of these changes.

    Unfortunately, writing and researching about OHS is a bit limited, there is need for conscientisation from supply utilities, users including estate agents as well as competent persons.

    We need to write more about it outside confines of the Associations.

    Not sure if I have used this App quote appropriately ...

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    Ow well, I included my responses in the quote. . Sorry.

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ians View Post
    I am master electrician and I have never seen any COC other than the 4 pages ... how scary is that ... so a really stupid question how do people who dont even work in the industry know what a COC looks like ... and people wonder why this industry is in such a F$%^ mess

    Maybe whoever is responsible and I would assume it is the DOL ... should try a little public awareness ... thank goodness electricity is not dangerous.
    It's a nightmare out there with even registered persons not sure of what to follow. Keeping up to date, as pointed out here below is not easy for everyone.

    Estate Agents and Insurance Companies should do better.

    Supply Authorities with the exclusion of Eskom should step up. Eskom have other issues to deal with and are officially incapacitated.

    DoL is officially incapacitated.

    Competent Persons should know that even the Standards can not protect them in case of legal liability, apparently.

    Associations and Boards should be empowered

    ECSA (Engineering Council) should close the existing lacuna in terms of recognition of Competent Persons especially Electrical Inspectors.

    Researchers should authoritatively write and be open to critique and peer to peer reviews.

    Otherwise, the mayhem will continue unabated!

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCE View Post
    I thought the change to COC and the requirements and implementation date where pretty much circulated and it is in the Foreword of SANS 10142-1

    The person signing the COC needs to ensure they stay up to date. Unfortunately none of us ever think to read the front pages of SANS until it gets pointed out.

    There has also been whispers coming out that the insurance industry is looking at insisting on a copy of the contractors public liability policy being attached to the COC before they will accept that COC . They want to know that they can sue and collect the money in the case of a fire etc.
    That could sort the industry out at double quick speed or at least ensure that each contractor is incurring the same expense/overhead on insurance.


    SANS 10142-1:2020
    Edition 3

    FOREWORD
    This South African standard was prepared by National Committee
    SABS/TC 067/SC 06, Electricity distribution systems and components
    Installations, in accordance with procedures of the South African Bureau of
    Standards, in compliance with annex 3 of the WTO/TBT agreement.
    This document was approved for publication in July 2020.
    This document supersedes SANS 10142-1:2017 (edition 2).
    The test report in edition 2 may be used in parallel with the test report in
    edition 3 for a period of 12 months from the date of publication of edition 3.

    With the first edition of this part of SANS 10142, the standard was subdivided
    and now consists of the following parts, under the general title The wiring of
    premises:
    Precisely.

    Additionally, I think Supply Utilities or DoL or AIA should be involved in approving every COC. A suggestion for there to be an amendment to the EI of 2009.

    An approval must include an onsite inspection. Any disputes arising, be referred to the Chief Inspector or their delegated powers , knowing they can't handle all.

    My suggestion...

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    The bottom line ... whoever is responsible for the registration of inspectors ... making the rules and regs and enforcing them should be responsible for making sure that there is adequate means of awareness ... be it training ... seminars etc ... it should not be left up to private ass. to manage ... if it is then ... "everyone" should have access to the information and a legal requirement that everyone is registered with that ass. ... credits be earned to retain your ability to sign a legal document ... just like they do with engineers.

    Every single COC issued should be recorded on a central data base which can be accessed by authorised personal to investigate any queries or disputes ... this bullshyte that if the public have to pay for an investigation ... then the matters is handed to ass.

    For the record how many registered electrical contractors are operating in SA at present ... how many illegal contractors ... how many registered with one or other ass. ... maybe these figue will hlep to understand the size of this problem.

    To give you a little background ... I was member of the ECA for many many years ... I could see Brian eyes rolling back as he saw my number pop up on his phone ... I was all for doing everything 100 % to the book ... I qualified as an electrician at Olifantsfontein ... did all my NTC training course ... went to night school studied to become a installation electrician ... did the years of practical then applied to get my yellow card (installation electrician) ... working commercial wiring up shopping centres ... then moved on to maintenance ... once I got my yellow card I went back to tech and studied to become a master electrician ... wired up spray booths worked in hospitals ... sugar mills ... mondi ...sappi ... in Cape Town I did class 1 installation ... DB's control systems even the instrumentation art of the job ... my CV is like reading a book ... eventually once I gained enough experience and passed all the exams required ... I them applied to become a master electrician ... eventually I received my red card ... It made me feel proud that I had achieved what I set out to do after many years ... I did trade assessments for a couple of years ... now its just embarrassing to be an electrician.

    The way I see it if you going to manage the industry and take on the responsibility of managing the industry ... at least try do a better job ... the electrical industry is joke.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  6. #16
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    I might have a solution for the 4 page COC ... just cut 2 pages off ... lets see how long it takes for anyone to realise it ... because it seems the only way people can tell old from new is by the amount of pages
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  7. #17
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    I made a point of asking customers for a copay of their COC today ... that's where the fight started.

    A question to every single person reading this thread ... can you produce a valid COC right now ?

    Do you know what it looks like and how pages it has ...

    A white 1 page document or

    a 2 page yellow document .. with white documents attached or

    A 4 page yellow document with a bunch of white pages attached or

    is it a copy of a COC or the original ...

    do you know who is suppose to keep the original...

    your the attorney ...

    the estate agent ...

    the tenant in your property ...

    you as the owner?

    IF you cant answer these simple questions ... who do you feel should be responsible for answering these simple questions ?

    Do you know is responsible for your electrical installation ... your electrician who works on your property ?

    Who do you call and report a dodgy COC ?

    Who do call to verify your electrician is is registered ... the DOL ... the ECA ... the ECB ... your local electrical wholesaler ?

    How do you know if the semi skilled staff dropped off on site are suitably qualified to install conduits ... chase walls or wire the building ... are they wearing an Id with their qualification ?

    All of us electrician reading this know the answer to all these question ... do you as a property owner or tenant know any of the answers ?

    Do you feel the electrical industry should create more awareness .. or do you feel there is enough information ?

    There are plenty more question ... these will give me an idea if is just me getting old and grumpy or is there is a real problem.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ians View Post
    I made a point of asking customers for a copay of their COC today ... that's where the fight started.

    A question to every single person reading this thread ... can you produce a valid COC right now ?

    Do you know what it looks like and how pages it has ...

    A white 1 page document or

    a 2 page yellow document .. with white documents attached or

    A 4 page yellow document with a bunch of white pages attached or

    is it a copy of a COC or the original ...

    do you know who is suppose to keep the original...

    your the attorney ...

    the estate agent ...

    the tenant in your property ...

    you as the owner?

    IF you cant answer these simple questions ... who do you feel should be responsible for answering these simple questions ?

    Do you know is responsible for your electrical installation ... your electrician who works on your property ?

    Who do you call and report a dodgy COC ?

    Who do call to verify your electrician is is registered ... the DOL ... the ECA ... the ECB ... your local electrical wholesaler ?

    How do you know if the semi skilled staff dropped off on site are suitably qualified to install conduits ... chase walls or wire the building ... are they wearing an Id with their qualification ?

    All of us electrician reading this know the answer to all these question ... do you as a property owner or tenant know any of the answers ?

    Do you feel the electrical industry should create more awareness .. or do you feel there is enough information ?

    There are plenty more question ... these will give me an idea if is just me getting old and grumpy or is there is a real problem.
    Hence my input that we must find ways of writing more. Technical fields are not heavily by authors or researchers. Could be, it's not worthy their time or that they are not capacitated or rather acquainted with the knowledge.

    From this Forum, people to authoritatively write, opine, critique and publish our work. Or at least how we know it.

    So it begins with anyone reading this. Let's

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  9. #19
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    I must be honest. Sorry guys.

    I still prefer the 4 page COC and test report.

    Section 3 of the new test report is in my opinion inferior to that of the 4 page document.

    All that could have been added to the 4 page document is Neutral Loop Impedance Test.

    Other than that, nothing has changed, other than certain items being omitted.

    Like I said, this is my personal opinion.

    To me it seems as if the standards are lowering.

    I just cannot grasp the fact that the 4 page COC and test report is no longer acceptable.

    Anyway, I'm old school and prefer to supply as much information as possible on a test report.

    Peace out .. Derek.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCE View Post

    There has also been whispers coming out that the insurance industry is looking at insisting on a copy of the contractors public liability policy being attached to the COC before they will accept that COC . They want to know that they can sue and collect the money in the case of a fire etc.
    :[/I]
    I have declined doing COC jobs as soon as it has come to my attention that the client needs a COC in order to ensure that his/her place is not gonna catch fire and burn to the ground.

    Nobody, but nobody can guarantee that there will not be a fire caused by an electrical fault anytime in the future.

    I point this out to the prospective clients and if they are not happy with this, I walk away.
    They must rather find someone else who can give them an anti fire guarantee.

    Peace out .. Derek

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