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Thread: SA programmers and web coders too expensive

  1. #21
    Platinum Member Chatmaster's Avatar
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    Riaan, make no mistake. I respect you in terms of your knowledge of SEO, I am sure that you will teach many people a thing or two. I would hardly ever disagree with you because you are always spot on with your SEO advice. I think this time I just had to voice my difference in opinion.

    But you just opened the can of Chathead and I need to get this off my chest!

    Since I started training people in online marketing I have noticed that in general there are different reasons why business owners simply do not rate the Internet as a priority.

    In terms of South Africa I am so deeply disappointed in the general opinion about the Internet and the use of it as a marketing tool that it is actually driving me crazy! Most people are so thick about SEO and the power it has that they simply argue that the Internet is just hype or has never worked before. They often refer to the .com bubble as if to say, "See, it doesn't work". Never once did they open their minds to the possibility that they might be the ones making the mistakes.

    A further factor is the absolute poor training provided by some in my industry. I am really holding back but would love to say their names, however it wouldn't be fair to them. These monkeys train people in order to make money and sell their own products during training. But their training is loaded with nice to know stuff but lack the real understanding of Internet marketing. So in the end you sit with delegates that were truly impressed by the performance but they do not realize that once they wish to start applying their new found knowledge, they actually learned nothing. The end result is confusement and loss of trust in the Internet as a marketing tool because it is simply to complicated.

    So to get back to what you have said, you are correct in saying that the site owner is ultimately responsible, and that is absolutely true. But the problem is that the site owner often is the business owner relying on conventional marketing to maintain his business growth. Yes conventional marketing is still the main stream marketing method used by most. The web is a nice to have and a billboard on the Internet and that is all it is.

    Their focus is to ensure that they grow their business with their local newspaper ads and pamphlets and to actually manage their business. This is exactly where the problem is. They are uninformed and completely internet stupid. They read articles written by authors and copywriters and completely respect every word they say without stopping for one second and think... Has this guy ever done Internet marketing? Has this guy ever done SEO in his entire life? Do yourself a favor, think of the most prominent people in SA in terms of Internet Marketing and SEO. Who are the people that are interviewed on TV, Radio and newspapers. Who are the people that are blindly followed by everyone in the industry. Then go and look at their background, many of them are authors, journalists etc. They actually have no experience in the field, but they are treated like experts! I often read their blogs and are amazed by the stupidity of the public to actually believe or respect what they read. Is South Africans really so ignorant? This country is one of the easiest country for any perception manager in the world! It is simply amazing.

    The moment people start talking Internet, IT and SEO most people are completely overwhelmed and filled with respect for the outstanding knowledge they acquire from these copywriters. I find it amazing to say the least. I am the worlds poorest copywriter and my English writing skills are so delirious that it will make you laugh more than anything else, but at least most of the time I write based on experience.

    People are so uninformed that if an IT guy tells them they did SEO for them they have no idea how to check up on them.

    Companies outsource SEO and the outsourced SEO is kept unmanaged! Reporting sucks because they simply have no idea what to look for! Every month millions of rands are spent by companies on SEO and SEM. They receive reports from SEO companies that were recommended by those exact same SEO companies! So they have all the power to manage perception in any way they please and the website owners are none the wiser. Why? Because they simply do not care or because they are so insecure in the Internet world they rather avoid it.

    The irony is, they just need to know one thing. How to manage SEO! It is the simplest thing in the world to learn. It takes me on average to teach a newbie marketing manager how to manage the entire Internet marketing process, 16 hours! They are able to do it themselves and they are able to outsource it and actually manage it properly without being "perception managed" by glorified gurus.

    The fact that this complete Chathead post is boiling down to. You are wasting your time. It doesn't matter how right you are. Very few people will actually hear what you say, because they simply do not care. Those that care are people like you. People that are making a living online and probably thanking the other idiots for missing the bigger picture.

    Telling them to only do SEO with trustworthy companies won't help them either. How on earth do they know what a trust worthy SEO company is? In their plain stupid ignorance they will simply ask another plain and simple ignorant business friend who they are using. That poor ignorant business friend has no idea he has been perception managed for the past 2 years and the 30k a month he has been paying for that time was spent on R200 worth of work! So the network of ignorant idiots just continue and continue selling the perception manager, lining his pockets with money, thinking it is well earned and the Internet doesn't really work that well.

    Sigh, see what you did! It is 2:30 in the morning and I am so upset I cannot sleep! This is Chathead finished with his super rant!
    Last edited by Chatmaster; 21-Feb-08 at 02:35 AM.
    Roelof Vermeulen (Entrepreneurship in large organizations)
    Roelof Vermeulen| Rock flaps south africa

  2. #22
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKS Computer Solutions View Post
    **This is not a personal attact on anyone, just the comments of a hothead who believes in working hard for something you believe in and not wasting money on unscrupilous members of society whose only purpose in life is to get your money and not offer you anything in return**
    I like those kinds of hotheads

    I remember setting up this site and wandering around the internet trying to find out how to do it. And one of the debates I stumbled on was the issue of SEO. In particular, it was whether there was value in a particular piece of relatively expensive software that would SEO your vB based website for you.

    I can tell you that debate still rages on.... And I think here's why.

    A person with a fairly basic understanding of SEO, a few minor code tweaks and some link building work can easily outperform the software product.
    However, there is a time cost in acquiring even the level of skill required to be able to "beat the software."
    Now what is your time worth?

    Just an example - let's not get too attached to it. But here's the point I'm leading to:

    The debate about whether to pay for SEO or not seems to ignore the fact that this must be examined from the client's perspective.
    And sometimes the best thing for that client is to pay the money and get on with something else!

    Everyone's circumstances are different.

    The only question from there is whether you are getting a reasonable deal or being ripped off - but I think Roelof has tackled that already.
    Last edited by Dave A; 21-Feb-08 at 07:28 AM. Reason: extended my comment

  3. #23
    Platinum Member Chatmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    The only question from there is whether you are getting a reasonable deal or being ripped off
    Dave once again a top class post!

    Last night (earlier this morning) I made comments that was filled with frustration not towards Riaan, (all but!) but the ignorance of the average website owner in South Africa. Riaan, one thing I absolutely value is difference in opinion. We all have the right to raise our opinions and a valuable one like yours is welcome to an open mind like mine If your read through the post you will also notice that we do not really disagree about anything, lol
    Last edited by Chatmaster; 21-Feb-08 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Spelling!
    Roelof Vermeulen (Entrepreneurship in large organizations)
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  4. #24
    Email problem RKS Computer Solutions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatmaster View Post
    If you read through the post you will also notice that we do not really disagree about anything, lol
    Let's agree to disagree on an agreeable disagreeability (not sure if those big words excist and wheter or not the spelling is correct, but heck, why not?)

    I agree though, and that is one point you mentioned that I didn't: Management of marketing in regards to SEO is more important than the SEO itself. Mindsets need to be changed in order for business owners to understand the difference between hard-copy advertising and the internet-connected variety.

    PS... You just had to go and get Chathead out of his bed at 2.30 in the morning and come trash my word count on the post


    Dave, what would the world be without hotheads?

  5. #25
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKS Computer Solutions View Post
    PS... You just had to go and get Chathead out of his bed at 2.30 in the morning and come trash my word count on the post
    That was wierd, actually. I woke up at 1.00 am and felt like some hot chocolate. Whilst I was drinking it, I thought I'd post a reply to a thread. Once I'd posted the reply I noticed Roelof was online.

    I was going to PM to go WASSUP, but my eyelids got kinda heavy and I don't remember too much after that.

  6. #26
    Platinum Member Chatmaster's Avatar
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    Yah, I had a very tough day yesterday. I only went to bed at 4 this morning and still battled to sleep, lol
    Roelof Vermeulen (Entrepreneurship in large organizations)
    Roelof Vermeulen| Rock flaps south africa

  7. #27
    Email problem RKS Computer Solutions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatmaster View Post
    Yah, I had a very tough day yesterday. I only went to bed at 4 this morning and still battled to sleep, lol
    Roelof, stop talking gibberish and explain yourself clearly please

    Where exactly can I find a "bed" and what is "sleep" ?

    I haven't been in bed since sunday night, huge crisis came about Monday morning and I've been flatout trying to salvage what I can... Guess I might find that elusive bed and sleep by friday night or so.... Insomnia is sometimes a blessing!

  8. #28
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    Question Can you help?

    Read what you had to say about programmers costs and local is lekker if they would not try to rip us off.
    I am currently urgently looking for a programmer in Access. Any comments Dave?
    Allan

  9. #29
    Platinum Member Chatmaster's Avatar
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    Can you tell me what you mean with a programmer in access? Is it for DBA purposes or are you looking for a VB programmer to create applications using access?
    Roelof Vermeulen (Entrepreneurship in large organizations)
    Roelof Vermeulen| Rock flaps south africa

  10. #30
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allanh View Post
    Any comments Dave?
    I hope you had another Dave in mind there, Allan

    I vaguely recall Chatmaster mentioning a little skill with Access though

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