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Thread: A few questions about the COVID mRNA vaccines

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    A few questions about the COVID mRNA vaccines

    I am getting the jab soon but I have a few questions that I would like some clarity on.
    1) The issue about anti-body dependent enhancement
    2) Will this vaccine drive the evolution of new variants?
    3) How does the mRNA vaccine spread throughout the body?

    1) The issue about anti-body dependent enhancement
    This is a potential long term issue whereby new variants can induce anti-body dependent enhancement and it can be fatal. This was actually observed in previous mRNA vaccines and in some cases this can only be seen 18-24 months after the initial vaccination. There is a bit of uncertainty about this issue for me.

    2) Will this vaccine drive the evolution of new variants?
    I think the answer is a simple yes. The reason being is that the vaccine is non-sterilizing. This means that vaccinated people can and do get infected (the vaccine reduces the severity) and therefore vaccinated people remain a reservoir for the virus. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people thus provide selective pressure for the virus to produce new variants. However, vaccinated people will drive the evolution of variants that are less susceptible to antibodies targeting the spike protein. It will be interesting to see the spread of the lambda variant as it seems to be resistant to the vaccines. Now if this is the case then it seems to me that we will need booster shots for each resistant variant.

    3) How does the mRNA vaccine spread throughout the body?
    I understand that the vaccine is injected into muscles cells (usually the arm) and that the vaccine enters muscles cells to start producing the spike protein. This elicits an immune response which in turn helps provide immunity against the spike protein. Part of the process is the expression of the spike protein on the surface of the cells where the mRNA was injected. Now the spike protein itself can cause local blood clots to form and this is fine at the site of injection (e.g. sore arm). My question is does the vaccine spread to other parts of the body to cause spike protein production there? Has this been quantified? Is this dependent on how the vaccine is injected (e.g. how many arterioles and venules are nicked during the process?)? I especially want to know how much of the vaccine gets to the pulmonary capillaries to induce spike protein production there. This reason for this is that blood clot formation in these capillaries can have long term negative effects that will only be picked up in 2 to 3 years. The most important one is increased pulmonary resistance (blood flow resistance) which can cause right ventricular hypertrophy and ultimately heart failure. This is not something that can be picked easily (usually chest x-rays, but who goes for them regularly?)

    If this is an issue then regular boosters can increase the chances of this happening.

    I hope these are all just extremely minor and unlikely issues but I would still like to have a little more clarity on these issues.

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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    This is a general chit chat forum - There are no scientists here.

    All that you are going to get is our 20 cents worth which is going to result in a loads of opposing non-scientific opinions.

    You are better off posing these questions in a suitable forum on Reddit where there might be real scientists at hand.
    “Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
    ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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    Gold Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by We_Know View Post
    I am getting the jab soon but I have a few questions that I would like some clarity on.
    1) The issue about anti-body dependent enhancement
    2) Will this vaccine drive the evolution of new variants?
    3) How does the mRNA vaccine spread throughout the body?

    1) The issue about anti-body dependent enhancement
    This is a potential long term issue whereby new variants can induce anti-body dependent enhancement and it can be fatal. This was actually observed in previous mRNA vaccines and in some cases this can only be seen 18-24 months after the initial vaccination. There is a bit of uncertainty about this issue for me.

    2) Will this vaccine drive the evolution of new variants?
    I think the answer is a simple yes. The reason being is that the vaccine is non-sterilizing. This means that vaccinated people can and do get infected (the vaccine reduces the severity) and therefore vaccinated people remain a reservoir for the virus. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people thus provide selective pressure for the virus to produce new variants. However, vaccinated people will drive the evolution of variants that are less susceptible to antibodies targeting the spike protein. It will be interesting to see the spread of the lambda variant as it seems to be resistant to the vaccines. Now if this is the case then it seems to me that we will need booster shots for each resistant variant.

    3) How does the mRNA vaccine spread throughout the body?
    I understand that the vaccine is injected into muscles cells (usually the arm) and that the vaccine enters muscles cells to start producing the spike protein. This elicits an immune response which in turn helps provide immunity against the spike protein. Part of the process is the expression of the spike protein on the surface of the cells where the mRNA was injected. Now the spike protein itself can cause local blood clots to form and this is fine at the site of injection (e.g. sore arm). My question is does the vaccine spread to other parts of the body to cause spike protein production there? Has this been quantified? Is this dependent on how the vaccine is injected (e.g. how many arterioles and venules are nicked during the process?)? I especially want to know how much of the vaccine gets to the pulmonary capillaries to induce spike protein production there. This reason for this is that blood clot formation in these capillaries can have long term negative effects that will only be picked up in 2 to 3 years. The most important one is increased pulmonary resistance (blood flow resistance) which can cause right ventricular hypertrophy and ultimately heart failure. This is not something that can be picked easily (usually chest x-rays, but who goes for them regularly?)

    If this is an issue then regular boosters can increase the chances of this happening.

    I hope these are all just extremely minor and unlikely issues but I would still like to have a little more clarity on these issues.
    How refreshing to see someone ask intelligent questions so that they can make an informed decision before having the jab. I find it difficult to understand why someone would take the jab, not knowing what the long term implications are. Anyway, time will tell.

    There are a whole bunch of real world reknowned scientists who can answer your questions at https://corona-ausschuss.de/wp-conte...9/sitzung5.jpg

    Peace out ... Derek

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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    I find it difficult to understand why someone would take the jab, not knowing what the long term implications are. Anyway, time will tell.
    Yet we eat and drink and smoke stuff every day without knowing whether there is a rat in the Coke tin of a finger in the loaf of bread or Salmonella in the polony, or whether the novacaine in the dentists injection is pure or the alchol content in the Cane won't kill us and and and and and...

    The only answer is that performative activism allows people to make a lot of noise about the issue of the day. A couple of years ago people were carrying on about mercury in vaccines causing autism (that nonsense also stemmed from uninformed people not understanding basic chemistry)
    “Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
    ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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    Gold Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianh View Post
    Yet we eat and drink and smoke stuff every day without knowing whether there is a rat in the Coke tin of a finger in the loaf of bread or Salmonella in the polony, or whether the novacaine in the dentists injection is pure or the alchol content in the Cane won't kill us and and and and and...

    The only answer is that performative activism allows people to make a lot of noise about the issue of the day. A couple of years ago people were carrying on about mercury in vaccines causing autism (that nonsense also stemmed from uninformed people not understanding basic chemistry)
    The only difference is that there's not a global rollout to get as many people as possible to eat polony, smoke ,,,, and drink cane and coke. It is our choice what we eat or drink.
    The ingredients are clearly on the packaging and it is our decision whether we want to consume it or not.

    How many vaccines can one choose from ? None.

    Take what you get and stop asking questions.

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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    Take what you get and stop asking questions.
    So the entire world is wrong except a handful of people - strikes me a bit odd that 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% of people could be right.

    I have friends and family living all over the world - they have had all the different vaccines, my brother in Namibia had the Russian Sputnic vaccine supplied to Namibia from China, my wife and all her family and friends in the UK have had the Astra Zeneca vaccine and my sister and family and friends in Australia have had the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, I had the Pfizer vaccine.

    I bet a handful of people had the exact same opposition to all the other diseases that we now take vaccines for as a matter of course -
    Chickenpox (Varicella)
    Diphtheria
    Flu (Influenza)
    Hepatitis A
    Hepatitis B
    Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b)
    HPV (Human Papillomavirus)
    Measles
    Meningococcal
    Mumps
    Pneumococcal
    Polio (Poliomyelitis)
    Rotavirus
    Rubella (German Measles)
    Shingles (Herpes Zoster)
    Tetanus (Lockjaw)
    Whooping Cough (Pertussis )

    Do you realize what happens to pregnant women if they contract German Measles - their babies don't get to argue about whether mommy believed the doctor when the doctor told her that the $h!t gets real if she doesn't take the vaccine.

    When I did my 2 years national service years ago we had an outbreak of Meningitis (Meningococcal) in a camp housing 1600 people meant for 600. (We also had gippo-guts every Sunday from crap food but I digress) Everybody, troops, NCOs and officers started getting very sick very quickly. They lined the entire camp up from the RSM down to the Gippo-gatte and we all got the vaccine whether we liked it or not. Nobody complained because all our maatjies were dying like flies around us. I clearly remember one of the side effects of the vaccine - it makes you p!$$ red for some reason (its not blood, there was some other strange chemical reaction)

    Look, I am not saying that the vaccines are perfect or that wearing a mask is perfect or washing your hands is perfect - all that I am trying to say is that doing those things are no different to wearing a seat belt - of course you might still get killed in a car accident but statistically speaking you have better chance of survival.

    The car seat belt analogy can be extrapolated to the vaccines more effectively in the following way. Two people are sitting in the back of a car. The one wears a seat belt and the other doesn't. As they cross into an intersection they get hit on the side by a drunk driver at high speed causing the car to roll. The accident occurrs due to no fault of either passenger - they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. The passenger that is not wearing the seat belt is flung around inside the car and he hits the passenger wearing the seat belt and kills him outright. If both passengers were wearing seat belts the chances of the both surviving would have been greater and the chance of one passenger hitting the other would have been less. Its all about probabilities - generally speaking we try to hedge our bets by doing things at the outset to protect ourselves and others from possible outcomes - that is why we buy insurance and that is why the government forces us to pay for third party insurance - we just don't know how our $h!t might affect other people.

    I remember years ago when the government legislated rear seat belts and kiddie seats in cars. I remember all the adults whinging and whining about how difficult and inconvenient it would be to force a child to wear a seat belt. Even after all that we still see kids standing on the front seat of cars traveling at speed. Daddy doesn't like wearing a seat belt so little Johnny gets to be roadkill though the windscreen when some other person turns in front of the car. The accident wasn't daddies fault but daddy could have (statistically speaking) given little Johnny a much better chance of survival if daddy forced little Johnny to sit down and wear the seat belt whether he likes it or not. Vaccines are no different - We take them not only to protect ourselves but also to protect others (on the balance of probability)
    “Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
    ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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    Gold Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    I'm probably a bit over cautious when it comes to these injections that were produced in record time as far as vaccines are concerned.

    I'm also reading quite a few reports of possible negative or even deadly effects from the vaccines that are presently being rolled out.

    These reports are not from my buddies but from world renowned scientists and doctors with plenty degrees and decades of experience in this field. But, hey, what do they know ?

    Anyway, like I said, I'm over cautious.

    Peace out .. Derek.

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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    Anyway, like I said, I'm over cautious.
    Fair enough, there is nothing wrong with that. Millions of people swear by Apple products and I won't touch them with a barge pole - we all have our fears and our choices.
    “Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
    ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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    I have a workshop full of people that we have been having discussions with to assist in making the choice to vaccinate so we can protect each other and ensure that the business stays open with minimal disruption ( continually isolation of staff) so that we can all earn a living.

    In order to answer questions I have had to look for answers and ensure that I used recognized ( by their peers) websites or research sites that were around long before Covid came along.
    There are plenty of websites with information that have sprung up recently that I tend to read with a pinch of salt.

    What has been interesting within our workplace is that we have 2 general workers that have convinced there peers to take the vaccine and that was based on their experience when we were installing supply to oxygen tanks in December in the rural areas , like Butterworth and Libode , where bodies where being constantly carted out to refrigerated containers.

    I also found that mRNA vaccine principles have been under research for the past 10 years but the lack of financial support has kept the pace of advancement throttled.
    Why would big pharma companies want to find a solution when they can keep selling you tablets ?

    An example is one staff member that did not want to vaccinate because of social media and that he felt he lives healthy , eats healthy and covid would not effect him besides mild flu - Contracted Covid and is now counting the days to vaccination. During his Covid period he was seriously man down and lost 4 days of awareness .
    During this time he spent R5K on tablets for himself and his wife - vs R1K that it would have cost for vaccine - Surely the big pharma companies would prefer supplying tablets vs vaccine ?

    mRNA was being researched as a possible cancer cure - Why would big pharma companies want to cut off the supply of Chemo treatment at 70K a month , which could explain the lack of research funding.

    I have a look at the medical aid companies - They have a vast pool of experts and actuaries researching before they support any form of medical treatment - Surely they are not going to support vaccine's if they have a suspicion that in 5 years time a large percentage of recipients will have side effects that are going to cost them a fortune in medical treatments. Besides, they will not be wanting to kill off there client base.It would make no commercial sense .

    If you are worried about the side effects listed for the vaccine , have you had a look at the side effects of a headache tablet ? and I bet almost every one takes them without a 2nd thought.

    I thought the statement below that was put to together by an employer in preparation with meeting his employee's after talking to experts that he has as clients was classic.

    [I]How safe is the vaccines – research (4 billion stats) is telling us there is a .0007% risk of getting blood clots or an allergic reaction when receiving the vaccine. Research and science tells us that it is 70 times riskier to take anti-biotics than the vaccine and we take them all the time for flues and infections etc. Based on the above stats you have more chance to die at the hands of a disabled grasshopper kicking you to death while you are wearing a helmet than dying from the vaccine. [/I]


    The majority of experts in the field of vaccinations agree that they work , the math's with regards to excess deaths and cases in countries that have rolled out successful vaccination programs is self explanatory.
    There will always be a handful of experts in every field that have opposing theories but when the overwhelming majority agree then surely you have to sit up and listen.

    I have pasted 2 opinions that were published last year explaining the reason vaccines for covid came along so quickly and they make sense .

    https://www.carnallfarrar.com/articl...collaboration/
    https://twitter.com/Kat_Arney/status...64932813955072

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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    My numbers game is comparing the numbers on the potential negative consequences of not being vaccinated vs the numbers on potential negative consequences arising from the vaccination.

    The simple maths to me is the benefit of improved chances of surviving a Covid 19 infection outweigh the potential for harmful consequences from the vaccine.
    For those who love being analytical down to every detail, by all means call me naïve. But the big picture looks plain as day; I don't see how squabbling about the fine print in the margins changes the big picture. There is a huge difference between the risk of dealing with Covid without having being vaccinated vs the risks associated with being vaccinated.

    Reality proved even more on point as I got pretty sick after the first shot of Pfizer.
    I started a scratchy throat within 15 minutes of the shot and my nose started streaming - like a heavy head cold. Both persisted strongly for 36 hours and I felt pretty lousy. There was a sudden and very noticeable improvement after 36 hours, but I only really felt back on my perch after two weeks.
    Yes, that first shot did not go well. But nowhere near as badly as it probably would had if I had got infected with Covid.
    I should probably also mention that pretty much everyone else I know who have had these vaccinations had hardly any issues other than the sore arm which seems pretty standard.

    Needless to say, when I went for my second shot last Monday I was rather apprehensive as to what the consequences would be. However, I still had the view that whatever happened, it should surely be less serious than if I got Covid itself.

    The great news is apart from the sore arm at the injection site, not a single side effect. I felt 100%.
    Although I didn't go for a run that first evening just to play safe, I certainly felt like I could have. And I have been running the rest of the week with no problems.

    Yes, the first shot hammered me harder than it did anyone else I have spoken to who has had the shot.
    But the second shot was a massively improved result.
    And isn't improving outcomes the whole point?

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