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Thread: Earth leakage tripping with no load ?

  1. #11
    Platinum Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ians View Post

    So in conclusion ... if i hadnt seen the video derek posted ... I personally would not have believed it was possible ... you live and learn.
    Hi Ian

    I used the socket outlet just to facilitate the plug tester. After filming, I did short the earth bar and neutral with a piece of wire with the same result ( no tripping ).

    The supply was taken from a dedicated plug in my workshop for testing earth leakages without tripping the houses one and irritating and upsetting mommy in the process.

    Now, to be fair, I did this little experiment with the only 2 NEW units I had, a Chint which I filmed, that did NOT trip and a CBI unit that DID trip. Why ,I don't know.
    The theory suggests that it should not trip.

    My conclusion is that although the theory suggests that they should not trip, some of them do.
    It would therefore not be correct to assume that the unit is faulty if it does not trip with an earth / neutral fault under no load.

    Best to just use the plug tester and the test button.

    The plot thickens.

    Peace out .. Derek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    Hi Ian

    I used the socket outlet just to facilitate the plug tester. After filming, I did short the earth bar and neutral with a piece of wire with the same result ( no tripping ).

    The supply was taken from a dedicated plug in my workshop for testing earth leakages without tripping the houses one and irritating and upsetting mommy in the process.

    Now, to be fair, I did this little experiment with the only 2 NEW units I had, a Chint which I filmed, that did NOT trip and a CBI unit that DID trip. Why ,I don't know.
    The theory suggests that it should not trip.

    My conclusion is that although the theory suggests that they should not trip, some of them do.
    It would therefore not be correct to assume that the unit is faulty if it does not trip with an earth / neutral fault under no load.

    Best to just use the plug tester and the test button.

    The plot thickens.

    Peace out .. Derek
    I dont have any chint E/L units to test ... however i am certainly going to try one and an onesto unit (I have been using a lot of onesto products).

    I would be interested to see what your leakage current is on your workbench.

    By no means is the earth to neutral test a factor used to decide if a unit is to be replaced or not ... I have specialised fluke equipment (thermal imaging camera ... 435 power quality unit... 1653 insulation resitance testers ... etc) which is used to test product and services ... It still blows my mind that eThikweni arrive on site with a duspol tester to verify power and voltage issues .. I am a one man bussiness .. .they are the electricity supplier... its another joke ... I inform them of volt drops down to as low as 160 VAC and they test ... I have just downloaded a recording from an factory ... it has over 100 events logged ... mostly voltage drops ... its is destroying the VSD's in the machines.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  3. #13
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    Chint is making arrangements to drop off a demo unit to test in my workshop ... lets see what happens.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  4. #14
    Platinum Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Hi Ians

    Just as an aside, I've replaced many faulty and burn't Onesto breakers on geyser circuits with Chint and have never gone back.

    Peace out ... Derek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    Hi Ians

    Just as an aside, I've replaced many faulty and burn't Onesto breakers on geyser circuits with Chint and have never gone back.

    Peace out ... Derek
    It has become a challenge for us to get chint products ... all the wholesalers use to carry chint ... but not anymore ... I dont why.

    I have also only had good experiences using the product ... the price was right and i have no complaints about the quality for a product in the price range ... I used CBI for many many years ... but the price and quality just doesnt cut it anymore.

    I had a 60 amp contactor coil burn out after many years of service ... but considering the power issues we experience in and around the Davenport in Durban ... I am not surprised ... with voltages dropping as low as 160 VAC ... massive surges which have resulted in over R200 k in blown equipment ...260 VAC spikes ... nothing will last.

    i hope to see Chint products back on the shelves in the near future ... we might even get lucky and see the chint single RCBO on the shelves.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  6. #16
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    I see that there is another player in the market with products which look similar to Chint.
    Swan Electrical
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

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    Now that is impressive service ... a call to Chint head office this morning ... an hour later a demo unit is delivered.

    Set it up on the work bench

    test button = trips

    voltage

    L-N = 235.6 VAC
    L-E = 236.0 VAC
    N-E = 0.462 VAC

    Trip time

    0 = 16.7 mS
    180 = 23.3 mS

    Trip current

    0 = 24 mA
    180 = 21 mA

    Switch "on" the socket outlet and touch the earth to the neutral on the load side = trips

    Switch "off" the socket outlet and touch the earth to neutral on the load side = trips

    Leakage current = displayed on the M 2417 between 2.5 mA and 25 mA during the test.

    Then I realised I had the 1653 plugged in which could create a small load ... unplugged it to make sure there was no load and tested again.

    As I touched the neutral terminal on the earth leakage it tripped.

    What have i learnt from all this ... only that in the past 38 years as an electrician ... i have never encountered an ideal situation when touching an earth wire to a neutral terminal on the load side of the earth leakage unit.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    I see that there is another player in the market with products which look similar to Chint.
    Swan Electrical
    Swan have been around for a while ... I have personally never seen it installed on site or used the product.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  9. #19
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ians View Post
    Now that is impressive service ... a call to Chint head office this morning ... an hour later a demo unit is delivered.

    Set it up on the work bench

    test button = trips

    voltage

    L-N = 235.6 VAC
    L-E = 236.0 VAC
    N-E = 0.462 VAC

    Trip time

    0 = 16.7 mS
    180 = 23.3 mS

    Trip current

    0 = 24 mA
    180 = 21 mA

    Switch "on" the socket outlet and touch the earth to the neutral on the load side = trips

    Switch "off" the socket outlet and touch the earth to neutral on the load side = trips

    Leakage current = displayed on the M 2417 between 2.5 mA and 25 mA during the test.

    Then I realised I had the 1653 plugged in which could create a small load ... unplugged it to make sure there was no load and tested again.

    As I touched the neutral terminal on the earth leakage it tripped.

    What have i learnt from all this ... only that in the past 38 years as an electrician ... i have never encountered an ideal situation when touching an earth wire to a neutral terminal on the load side of the earth leakage unit.
    The take here is that the ELU is behaving correctly, in that it protects the load side in an event as we have seen here where the supply side is not up to standards.
    If the Earth/Neutral was according to standard, then the ELU would not trip, as there would not be a leakage current flowing from Neutral to Earth when you short it.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

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    Correction : when I bridge the neutral and earth on the line side of the earth leakage unit (top)... then touch the earth wire on the neutral on the load side (bottom) of the earth leakage (creating an ideal situation) the leakage doesnt trip.

    A question: to create the ideal situation you need to have literally zero resistance between earth and neutral ... we can see by the test results in my workshop and any other istallations i have tested ... this is not the case ... so i ask myself this question ... how do you create an ideal situation ... you join the neutral and earth on the line side of the earth leakage ( but you are not allowed to do this because it is dangerous) ... you have a transformer just before the earth leakage and join earth the neutral or as you do with a generator ?

    I am interested to find out why Dereks earth leakage doesnt trip ... earthing arrangement in East London ... workshop is really close to the star point on the transformer ... short wire runs from the supply ... 24 mA is a very small amount of current (0.024 A) required to trip and earth leakage you mentioned a dedicated supply to test earth leakage units ... are you using a safety transfomer ... is this the case if you test any installtion in EAst London?

    This reminds me of the old days when we had to run a seperate earth wire on the dedicated sockets ... imagine that.

    Where is Andy with all his logic and formulas ?
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

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