Electrical nightmares

[ians]

I started a thread to discuss hourly rates and what i would regard as a reasonable rate ...i decided to can it by the third line.

There are just toooooooooo many factors to take into consideration ...that saying... you get what you pay for... is generally right.

Are you being ripped off if the electrician charges you more than 20 % markup ...I dont think so.

Is charging a customer for the time spent travelling to the site and at double time for after hours work against the law... I dont think so.

Interfering with the integrity of an electrical installation to prove a point the way to do thing... I dont think so.

It is interesting that this got to this point ...with the technology available and considering you can access prices with the tap of a finger...you could call a 24 hr number and get a price for callouts....but even more important ...if you calling a person to do a job surely you ask the callout fee and if the figue sounds way over the top ...you shop around.

Until all the "facts" are presented in a manner in which we can see where this fella was at fault ...the bill (labour...material...travelling etc) is itemised and you can prove he has committed fraud... hear his side of the story ...I am not convinced he is 100 % to blame.

Did they get their message across and crucify him... hell yes.

[Derlyn]

If i were you i would get a piece of 3 core cabtyre with a plug top... put a connector on the live wire so that it is safe ...join the neutral and earth together...plug the plug top into a socket where you know the earth leakage trips at around 25 mA and come back and tell us what happens.

I would bet all my punctured bicycle tubes that there is no way on this earth that you will be able to reset the earth leakage unit with the main switch turned on ...even with the plug socket switch turned off and all the circuit breakers turned off...in fact i dont know why the clever sparkie they used to trick the fella interfered with the integrity of the electrical installation by creating a fault... he basically made the COC if there was one for that property invalid...unless he repaired it tested it again and added a supplement COC... if you can switch on the earth leakage then you have an even bigger problem ...best you get a loop impedance tester and start checking where you have an earthing issue.

Report back

I tried it and did everything as per your instructions.
Tested ELR with tester. Trips at 25mA. A ok.

Main switch on, ELR on, all other breakers off (no load)
Plugged in the plug with neutral and earth connected to each other as per your recommendation and switched the socket outlet on.
However hard I try, NADA, earth leakage will not trip.

Cheers and peace out
Derek

[ians]

Report back

I tried it and did everything as per your instructions.
Tested ELR with tester. Trips at 25mA. A ok.

Main switch on, ELR on, all other breakers off (no load)
Plugged in the plug with neutral and earth connected to each other as per your recommendation and switched the socket outlet on.
However hard I try, NADA, earth leakage will not trip.

Cheers and peace out
Derek

I have just tested 5 heineman earth leakage units ...all different models (old and new) ...even the one with the earth wire hanging off the bottom...every single unit trips when the earth and neutral are connected together...it makes no difference with the circuit breakers on or off...the plug switch on or off ...you cannot reset the earth leakage unit...until you remove the bridge...did a loop impedance test at the socket outlet (1.2 ohms) ...test plug trips at 24-26 mA on the various units... 232.6 volts at the plug socket.

Does the trip button on the earth leakage work.

My advice to you is do a loop impedance test at the plug socket where you are testing...if the result is within spec... then i would strongly advice you get a second opinion... it is a pity you live so far away ...i love these kind of challenges ...its what keeps me interested in the doing what i do.

I have a new challenge i am busy with at the moment ...i have clearline trip connect units installed in 2 building next to each other... one is tripping all the time (indicating low voltage 179V) the other has no event recorded... i have removed the units sent them back to clearline ...with my backup unit... they were checked at clearline and returned... reinstalled ...however the one unit you cannot set the time ...and has now gone dead... the other is installed but keeps randomly dropping the contactor out...resets after 4 seconds as per the settings in the unit parameters... and the other has no events recorded...personally i am loosing faith in these units... i should just cut my looses and replace all 3 units ...however that would be too easy

[Derlyn]

My next mission is to find out how to post photo's and videos on this forum. At the moment, I don't know how to do this.

I will then post photos and videos to prove that the ELR does not trip on a neutral fault without a load connected.



Cheers and peace out ... Derek.

[Justloadit]

My next mission is to find out how to post photo's and videos on this forum. At the moment, I don't know how to do this.
I will then post photos and videos to prove that the ELR does not trip on a neutral fault without a load connected.
Cheers and peace out ... Derek.

We do not disbelieve you.

What we are saying is that the ELB should trip, and if not, then there may be an issue at the site.

The ELB measures the difference in currents through the Live and Neutral, and if the value is greater than its specification then it should trip.
The way that this differential works, is to place the Live and Neutral through a core. The current flowing through the Live and Neutral will cancel out under proper operation. If there is a leakage in either the Live or Neutral to Earth, the currents through the core no longer cancel out, and a voltage is induced in the pick up winding.This voltage is then compared to the setting of the unit, and will trip the mechanism if it exceeds the parameter.

Short neutral to earth on a circuit carrying a load, and part of the neutral current flows through earth conductor instead of neutral. The ELB sees an imbalance and trips. So an ELB trips on almost any live fault, but only trips on neutral faults if the circuit is carrying a load.

Usually the Neutral point at the supply transformer is connected to Earth. The further one is away from the transformer, the more potential difference will be between Neutral and Earth as the system is loaded.
As I said before it may be that you are very close to the supply transformer, and hence the leakage from Neutral to Earth when shorted does not trigger the ELB.

[ians]

Derek there has to be a reason why i can do it and you cant... i just want to know why.

This would be an interesting test for electrician in different provinces... in Durban the earth is supplied from the municipality...if I switch off everything except the main switch and earth leakage unit... take a plug top and short out the neutral and earth pin ...plug it into a socket ...you cannot reset the earth leakage unit if the main switch is switched on.

I would love to hear what the results are from other provinces...maybe in East London they might have a different earthing arrangement... TN-S ...TN-C-S ... TN-C ...I would love to know why i can do it and other people cant... have any other sparkies tried this in East London?

[ians]

I have another concern that has always boggled my brain... customers complain about a tingling feeling when they touch the washing machine ...generally it means the earth wire is not connected ...i find where the earth wire is off and reconnect it... what blows my mind is that there is no more tingling ...but earth leakage doesnt trip ...and i do check that the earth leakage is tripping at around 25 mA and the trip button is working.

[Derlyn]

Quote Originally Posted by From another forum
Short neutral to earth on a circuit carrying a load, and part of the neutral current flows through earth conductor instead of neutral. The ELB sees an imbalance and trips. So an ELB trips on almost any live fault, but only trips on neutral faults if the circuit is carrying a load.

Hi Justloadit

Read the above again. I believe this was posted by you.
Now read the last sentence, especially the second half after the comma.
Can you see that the ELR only trips on a neutral fault under load conditions.

Now why would this be ?

The answer is that only under load conditions is there current flowing through the ELR.

Now you yourself said that the ELR checks the current flowing in the live and the current flowing in the neutral. If these 2 currents differ by either equal to or more than the sensitivity of the unit, it will trip. I agree 100%. BUT What happens when there is ZERO current flowing in the live and neutral ?

For example: Live current 0.000Amps, Neutral current 0.000Amps Difference 0.000Amps ( no tripping I'm afraid )

You can create as many neutral to earth faults as you like, the ELR will not trip as there is no current flowing in either the live or neutral conductor through the unit.

Now some senior contributors have suggested that the ELR will trip on a neutral/earth fault even with the load circuit breakers turned off.
How does one get any current to flow through the ELR with the load circuit breakers turned off ? Where's that current coming from ?

No, it's got nothing to do with the area. TNCS in Durban is TNCS in East London is TNCS in Johannesburg. It's got nothing to do with different provinces as was suggested.

It's got to do with the simple fact that the ELR only trips when the difference in current in the live and neutral through the unit is greater than the unit's sensitivity. If there's no current flowing through the ELR ( no load ) it will not trip even if there are 100 neutral to earth faults.

This is not too difficult to understand.

Still busy with a video and will post it as soon as I know how to.

Cheers and peace out ... Derek

[Justloadit]

Hi Justloadit

Read the above again. I believe this was posted by you.
Now read the last sentence, especially the second half after the comma.
Can you see that the ELR only trips on a neutral fault under load conditions.

Now why would this be ?

The answer is that only under load conditions is there current flowing through the ELR.

Now you yourself said that the ELR checks the current flowing in the live and the current flowing in the neutral. If these 2 currents differ by either equal to or more than the sensitivity of the unit, it will trip. I agree 100%. BUT What happens when there is ZERO current flowing in the live and neutral ?

For example: Live current 0.000Amps, Neutral current 0.000Amps Difference 0.000Amps ( no tripping I'm afraid )

You can create as many neutral to earth faults as you like, the ELR will not trip as there is no current flowing in either the live or neutral conductor through the unit.

Now some senior contributors have suggested that the ELR will trip on a neutral/earth fault even with the load circuit breakers turned off.
How does one get any current to flow through the ELR with the load circuit breakers turned off ? Where's that current coming from ?

No, it's got nothing to do with the area. TNCS in Durban is TNCS in East London is TNCS in Johannesburg. It's got nothing to do with different provinces as was suggested.

It's got to do with the simple fact that the ELR only trips when the difference in current in the live and neutral through the unit is greater than the unit's sensitivity. If there's no current flowing through the ELR ( no load ) it will not trip even if there are 100 neutral to earth faults.

This is not too difficult to understand.

Still busy with a video and will post it as soon as I know how to.

Cheers and peace out ... Derek

I hear what you are saying. I am explaining what I have experienced, ELB trip with no loads connected.
The ELB senses the differential between Live and Neutral, as has been agreed by every one, if there is any current flowing between Neutral from source (Municipal) to Earth at the point of testing, then it stands to reason that there is a differential between Neutral and no current in Live so it trips, so there is no load connected at the DB under test.
It may be that there is an issue with the municipal supply Neutral/Earth that is causing this. As I mentioned before it also may add to the issue being further away from the transformer supply, as there are loads connected before the DB under test. It may be that there is an issue with other DBs connected to the grid which may be causing the issue as well.

The discussion here is to identify, so that we can correct .

[ians]

So i called a man about a dog and he explained to me why it should/will trip when you connect the neutral to the earth.

Derek you are correct in saying that there has to be load/current...it only has to be more than in my case 25 mA... i am very interested to know why your earth leakage is "not" tripping... take a current leakage tester and clamp it around the line and neutral and tell me what the reading is... i am going to bridge out my earth leakage unit and actually test the leakage current when the neutral and earth are connected together.

How it works...by connecting the neutral to earth it creates a small leakage current to earth which will cause the coils around the live and neutral inside the earth leakage unit to be unbalanced which will cause the earth leakage to trip.