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Thread: Electrical nightmares

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    I disagree with the above statement.

    Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

    The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

    However

    If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.


    Off the original topic, I know, but had to respond.

    Cheers and peace out
    Derek
    OK... interesting response ...that fault that they created in the video was a neutral fault and these was nothing wrong with the e/l unit... that was the point.

    I can only assume that you had removed the neutral conductor and maybe even the live conductor from the bottom of the "faulty" earth leakage and tried to reset by pushing the lever to the bottom and then up ...before billing the customer for a new e/l unit... other wise you could sit with a small challenge trying to explain to the customer why the new e/l unit is tripping.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELECT 1 View Post

    Another issue i have is the stupid (in My personal opinion the COC form.) There should be less stuff and forms to fill in, like one page.
    I wouldnt say stupid... but rather ...just badly designed ...there is really no one piece of paper that fits all.

    From the COC's i have encountered ...most inspectors dont even know or choose not to fill the form out correctly...it is just tooo vague and open for abuse.

    Every single electrical inspector should be on a data base... which records every COC document completed by every inspector ...updated every single day.

    Random tests should be carried out to verify that the inspector is doing the test correctly.

    There should be a point system requires the inspector complete refresher courses as new regs come out.

    Every 12 months the inspectors should be interviewed and tested at his level ...ie if you are a master electrician ...the random questions asked should cover every aspect of the electrical industry... the inspector should provide all the documentation required to keep up to date wit hall the regs at the time of the interview.

    I know dream on.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

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    I've read some of the opinions on this thread and eventually watched the CB clip myself. It appears that a complaint from a customer was followed up and then the Carte Blance team ran into the same crook that they exposed 10 years prior. The guy's reaction and verbal abuse was shocking and all the evidence indicates that he is a crook, so why try to defend him?

    We moan about a corrupt and thieving government, but I can tell you that there is so much more happening in our commercial world. Who offers the bribes to government? The Guptas were not the only ones; KPMG, McKinsey, Bank of Baroda, Thales, Steinhoff, Bosassa, Tongaat Hulett, ATM, were all involved in some form of corruption. The list goes on and on. Analysts believe that South African corporate executives are “the biggest culprits of economic crimes on earth”. The small crooks are not even reported!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurock View Post
    I've read some of the opinions on this thread and eventually watched the CB clip myself. It appears that a complaint from a customer was followed up and then the Carte Blance team ran into the same crook that they exposed 10 years prior. The guy's reaction and verbal abuse was shocking and all the evidence indicates that he is a crook, so why try to defend him?

    !
    "nobody is denying the fact that Mark Levy could be a crook...but if you going to target one individual ...make sure you get your facts right and lay the facts out in a manner in which people can identify the problems ...not this whishy washy flash clips."
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    I disagree with the above statement.

    Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

    The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

    However

    If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.


    Off the original topic, I know, but had to respond.

    Cheers and peace out
    Derek
    This response tells me that this electrician would have given the same answer during the interview... is this person also a crook?
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

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    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
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    The guy is a predatory opportunist at best and possibly a criminal. He gives the industry a bad name.

    On the flip side who the hell are the ECA to dictate contractors mark-up? That pisses me off almost as much as the cowboy ripping people off using scare tactics.

    The mark-up on an item that's installed has to cover many expenses such as admin, money tied up in stock-holding or driving to the wholesalers plus the possible future costs involved in carrying any warranty claims amongst other things. Just last week I had to get clearance to close off a public road and erect 6 stories of scaffold to replace an isolator switch on the side of a building that had set on fire. The cost of the isolator was around R1700.00 but if that item has a warranty claim in the next 12 months, yes the supplier will cover the switch itself but the cost of the rigging alone to replace it will be R16k which I'll be liable for, not mention the road closure costs. I can assure you that I charged considerably more than the ECA recommended 20% mark-up and the ethics audit I mentally conducted on myself after invoicing the job came up squeaky clean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyD View Post
    On the flip side who the hell are the ECA to dictate contractors mark-up?
    I've asked the KZN Regional Director about this Friday last week.

    Dear Shantonette,

    A story flighted last week by Carte Blanche has been drawn to my attention. If you are not familiar with it, the story can be viewed here:
    https://m-net.dstv.com/show/carte-bl...ghtmares/video

    The story raises many causes for concern. However, it is one statement in particular made in the video that is the cause of my enquiry to you here.

    At just after 4 minutes into the video, the statement is made that “the ECA SA recommends no more than a 20% mark-up on parts.”

    Please confirm that this is actual ECA SA policy, or is it “just” someone’s opinion?
    Should this indeed be ECA SA official policy, I would also be interested in the history as to how this policy came about, how the figure was arrived at, and the extent to which members are supposed to abide by this determination.

    Warm regards
    The response I received was:
    Am not aware of a policy, it could be someone’s opinion, not sure who you might think it is if you have a name that comes to mind perhaps I could approach them and ask?
    I'll ask her to check with all the RDs and the Contractual Committee.
    Last edited by Dave A; 30-Jan-20 at 03:05 PM.

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  10. #28
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlyn View Post
    Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

    The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

    However

    If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.
    Unfortunately my experience does not support this.

    I was taking the calls to our standby service line over our end-of-year shutdown this year. The first step is to try to talk the client through their problem.

    In one of those calls, the earth leakage unit was tripping with just the main switch on (the circuit breakers on all circuits were down). Obviously a "neutral fault" (as already mentioned by Ian) or perhaps a faulty earth leakage unit.
    Checked with the client that all isolators were down too. Confirmed.
    Asked the client to remove all plugs plugged into socket outlets.
    The client (who was pretty sharp actually) said he had already switched off all socket outlets at their respective switches.
    I pointed out that with a neutral-earth fault, that doesn't solve the problem. The plug must be removed.

    He unplugged his brand new weed-eater (which he actually immediately identified as his most likely suspect), and problem solved.

    Given the usual voltage difference between neutral and earth present in a typical installation, obviously there is a current flow on the neutral with a neutral-earth fault. If the volt difference and fault resistance values are in the right ranges, it seems that is enough to trip (at least some types of) earth leakage units even when there is no current through the live conductor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    Unfortunately my experience does not support this.

    I was taking the calls to our standby service line over our end-of-year shutdown this year. The first step is to try to talk the client through their problem.

    In one of those calls, the earth leakage unit was tripping with just the main switch on (the circuit breakers on all circuits were down). Obviously a "neutral fault" (as already mentioned by Ian) or perhaps a faulty earth leakage unit.
    Checked with the client that all isolators were down too. Confirmed.
    Asked the client to remove all plugs plugged into socket outlets.
    The client (who was pretty sharp actually) said he had already switched off all socket outlets at their respective switches.
    I pointed out that with a neutral-earth fault, that doesn't solve the problem. The plug must be removed.

    He unplugged his brand new weed-eater (which he actually immediately identified as his most likely suspect), and problem solved.

    Given the usual voltage difference between neutral and earth present in a typical installation, obviously there is a current flow on the neutral with a neutral-earth fault. If the volt difference and fault resistance values are in the right ranges, it seems that is enough to trip (at least some types of) earth leakage units even when there is no current through the live conductor.
    Hi Dave

    1. I have never in my 41 year career as electrician come across an earth leakage tripping as a result of an earthed neutral without any current through the live.

    2. Something just doesn't add up with the weed eater scenario. I have yet to see a weed eater that's supplied with a 3 core lead. Every one that I've seen comes with a 2 core lead and no earth. Maybe there are, but I have yet to see one.

    Cheers and peace out ... Derek

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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    Derek, regardless of the device (call it a kettle or hotplate if it makes you feel better) - the guy reported he unplugged the appliance, and the fault cleared.

    Thinking about it - Quite a few weed-eaters seem to come with the Schuko plug. Perhaps it was a misbehaving Shuko to 164-1 adaptor (I have had that before).

    A dead short on as little as 0.2 volts shouldn't have any trouble exceeding 30 mA.
    Last edited by Dave A; 01-Feb-20 at 09:48 AM.

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