COC for PV installation

[Andreviljoen]

Is there any limitation on what type of Tester may issue a COC for a PV installation, besides the obvious single or three phase, etc.

[AndyD]

No, any person who qualifies to issue electrical CoC's can certificate a PV installation.

[GCE]

Large portions of the PV installation will be DC voltage - According to Annex M in SANS 10142-1 pg 355 it will need to be an Installation or Master Electrician.

Single phase tester cannot sign off on DC work , or 2 phases

[AndyD]

So if there's a string of DC PV panels connected to an inverter the electrical installation is no longer classed as single phase, it would be classed as a DC installation?

[GCE]

Hi Andy

The original question was over signing PV installation off - Then Annex M would apply

With the change in question and a single phase tester gets called to carried out a test and inspection with the view to issuing a COC on a domestic dwelling, single phase, of which there is a PV installation - I would say that he cannot issue a coc for the complete installation and would need to exclude the PV section - The COC then would not be valid for that installation as you have now left out a critical section of the installation.

The single phase tester would be committing fraud by informing the owner he is registered to test and inspect the installation - My opinion.

Technically the majority of inverters produce 2 phases and the neutral only comes into play once you earth the one phase , as a supplier of electricity for that section. So I would say that he cannot sign off on the circuits fed from the output side of the inverter.

If I go back in my memory bank , and I cannot find the original definition of single phase tester - I do know that it has changed substantially.
Originally a single phase tester was created because the proposed quantity of RDP houses to be built would have been hampered due to the shortage of installation electricians to sign off.If I remember correctly a SPT was only allow to sign off on a supply lower than 63 amp's and a dwelling of 100 sqm - He was not allowed to sign off on low voltage downlighters, Aircons , Spa baths and a couple of other stipulations where included.It has slowly been changed over the years - The SPT does not need to pass SANS 10142 and they keep pushing the boundaries like every regulation in South Africa is pushed.
I believe that there is a place for SPT but that the scope has been allowed to creep to far and probable needs to be looked at and restricted by definition.

[ACEsterhuizen]

I respectfully disagree. PV Panels and its wiring is not a point of control as defined in the regs. Therefor it is not part of an electrical installation as defined.

[GCE]

Hi

Not sure I fully understand your reasoning behind your above statement .

Sans 10142-1 applies from point of control on wards - We both agree

Point of control - point at which a consumer can switch off the electrical installation from the electricity supplied from the point of supply - We both agree but you need to include the definition, point of supply
Point of supply - point at which a supplier supplies electricity to any premises

If we take all domestic installations and the majority of commercial installations , the PV panels/inverter will be connected after the point of control and would therefore be part of the electrical installation.

There are installations where the PV panel / inverter will be connected before the point of supply/control and then I suppose technically the area becomes grey as no COC needs to be issued.But these are big installations where arrangements are made with the municipalities and Eskom under separate agreements of which I do not know too much about.

SANS 10142-1 has a complete section 7.12 Alternative Supplies( pg 244 to 250) and specifically mentions PV installations and deals with issues around PV installations - 7.12.7.2 states the DC component of PV systems shall comply to 7.15 , DC Installations ( pg 256)

I don't see how the statement can be made that PV is not part of an electrical installation and would not form part of the COC when SANS 10142-1 incorporates PV within the regulations.

Am I missing something ?

[AndyD]

.....
With the change in question and a single phase tester gets called to carried out a test and inspection with the view to issuing a COC on a domestic dwelling, single phase, of which there is a PV installation - I would say that he cannot issue a coc for the complete installation and would need to exclude the PV section - The COC then would not be valid for that installation as you have now left out a critical section of the installation......

I'm not very clued up on the scope of a Single Phase Tester to be honest but from what you say the same logic would apply if the premises had a light circuit with normal LED lighting that was supplied by a CC or CV driver. This would also exclude him from being able to certify the installation because of the DC component whereas if that same circuit was ELV halogens (12VAC) he'd be able to sign it off.....

[GCE]

Hi

The COC ends at the light point and excludes the light fitting besides the safety around the light fitting itself - Suppose it would be excluded and would allow the single phase tester to sign off.

I would think that the input terminals of the driver would be the light point - The other way around it would be to install a 5 amp socket and plug the driver in.The socket would be the point.

[ACEsterhuizen]

can you switch off or control the pv panels at the "point of Control" in any way, If yes, then I agree. If no, then it falls outside this definition and cannot be "certified" by a CoC.




"Point of control - point at which a consumer can switch off the electrical installation from the electricity supplied from the point of supply - We both agree but you need to include the definition, point of supply"

You decided that, that must be included in the definition, but it is not as it is written in the regs?

[GCE]

The "point of supply "definition is in the regulations

I am going to start at the beginning - I have listed definitions of what I see as relevant - Definitions , in red, are from the OHSA , Electrical Installation regulations 2009 ( the definitions are copied from the regulations and not my making )
The OHSA is what gives SANS 10142-1 teeth

electrical installation means any machinery, in or on any premises, used for the transmission of electricity from a point of control to a point of consumption anywhere on the premises, including any article forming part of such an electrical installation irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit, but excluding
(a)
any machinery of the supplier related to the supply of electricity on the premises;
(b)
any machinery which transmits electrical energy in communication, control circuits, television or radio circuits;

point of control means the point at which an electrical installation on or in any premises can be switched off by a user or lessor from the electricity supplied from the point of supply, or the point at which a particular part of an electrical installation on or in any premises can be switched off where different users occupy different portions of such premises;

point of supply means the point at which electricity is supplied to any premises by a supplier;

supplier in relation to a particular electrical installation, means any person who supplies or contracts or agrees to supply electricity to that electrical installation;


One relevant part of the electrical installation definition is - including any article forming part of such an electrical installation irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit,
This allows us as Electrical contractors to be in charge of installing cable trays , conduits etc and is relevant to the PV installations as well

Moving onto SANS 10142-1 - We start at the scope covered - Again regulations copied are in red , not mine

1.2 Aspects covered by this part of SANS 10142
This part of SANS 10142 covers
a) circuits supplied at nominal voltages up to and including 1 000 V a.c. or
1 500 V d.c. The standard frequency for a.c. is 50 Hz. The use of other
frequencies for special purposes is not excluded,
b) circuits, other than the internal wiring of apparatus, that operate at
voltages exceeding 1 000 V and are derived from an installation that has
a voltage not exceeding 1 000 V a.c.,
c) any wiring systems and cables not specifically covered by the standards
for appliances,
d) all consumer installations external to buildings,
e) fixed wiring in the power supply circuits for telecommunication equipment,
signalling equipment, control equipment and the like (excluding internal
wiring of apparatus),
f) the extension or alteration of the installation and also parts of the existing
installation affected by the existing extension or alteration,
g) fixed wiring needed to connect the various units of complex machinery
that are installed in separate locations,
h) equipment for which no standard is referenced ,
i) replacement or maintenance of components, and
j) earthing arrangements.

If we are going to refer to PV installations as machinery I would hazard a guess and say that PV is complex as describe in g above - So I would think it is covered under the scope

Moving onto Normative references - regulations copied are in Red and not mine - I have been selective to what I see as relevant
2 Normative references
The following referenced documents, in whole or in part, are normatively
referenced in this document and are indispensable for its application.
For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For undated
references, the latest edition of the referenced document (including any
amendments) applies. Information on currently valid national and
international standards can be obtained from the SABS Standards
Division.

IEC 62116, Utility-interconnected photovoltaic inverters – Test procedure of
islanding prevention measures.

SANS 60364-7-712/IEC 60364-7-712, Electrical installations of buildings –
Part 7-712: Requirements for special installations or locations – Solar
photovoltaic (PV) power supply systems.

SANS 61215/IEC 61215, Crystalline silicon terrestrial photovoltaic (PV)
modules – Design qualification and type approval.

SANS 61646, Thin-film terrestrial photovoltaic (PV) modules – Design
qualification and type approval.

As can be seen from the above SANS workgroup have used PV related documents to compile SANS 10142-1

The definitions in SANS 10142-1 that I see as relevant - regulations copied are in Red and not mine

3.33
electrical installation
machinery, in or on any premises, that is used for the transmission of
electrical energy from a point of control (see 3.56) to a point of
consumption (see 3.55) anywhere on the premises, including any article
that forms part of such an installation, irrespective of whether or not it is part
of the electrical circuit, but excluding
a) any machinery of the supplier that is related to the supply of electricity on
the premises,
b) any machinery that is used for the transmission of electricity of which the
voltage does not exceed 50 V, where such electricity is not derived from
the main supply of a supplier, and
c) any machinery that transmits electrical energy in telecommunication,
television or radio circuits

3.9
Certificate of Compliance
CoC
certificate that is issued by a registered person in respect of an electrical
installation or part of an electrical installation

3.56
point of control
point at which a consumer can, on or in any premises, switch off the
electrical installation from the electricity supplied from the point of supply

3.58
point of supply
point at which a supplier supplies electricity to any premises
From the above definitions it would appear that the machinery (PV installation ) is being used for the transmission of electrical energy after the point of control

Now I get my COC form out and low and behold in section 2 - Installation it ask's me about alternative supplies and references me to 7.12 page 244

Is alternative power supply installed? (See 7.12):  Yes  No


7.12 Alternative supplies
NOTE Alternative supplies include but are not limited to low-voltage generating sets,
photovoltaic (PV) installations, gas generators, diesel generators, wind turbines and
hydropower plant.

7.12.1.1 Subclause 7.12 applies to an installation that incorporates
alternative supplies intended to supply, either continuously or occasionally,
all or part of the installation with the following supply arrangements:
a) supply to an installation or part of an installation which is not connected to
the main supply of a supplier;
b) supply to an installation or part of an installation as an alternative to the
main supply of a supplier; and
c) appropriate combinations of the above

Having a look at 7.12 it references in particular PV installations and then verifies that even if it feds only part of the installation it is still relevant

7.12.1.2 Subclause 7.12 covers, but is not limited to, the following
a) alternate supply that consist of a combination of an internal combustion
engine or a turbine, hydro plant, wind energy recovery installation or any
similar source of mechanical energy and an alternator or a d.c. generator;
b) rotary UPS (uninterruptible power supply) systems that consist of a
combination of an electric motor and an alternator, with batteries as a
standby power source for the electric motor, or with an internal
combustion engine, gas or turbine as a standby power source for the
alternator; and
c) static UPS systems that consist of static inverters with batteries as the
standby power source (with or without bypass facilities).
d) installations similar to those in 7.12.1.2(c), but sourcing energy from
photovoltaics or other sources.

Again 7.12.1.2 d references in particular PV systems
They then continue to reference in broad terms to various regulations that need to be complied to for alternative supply's - Their is then a section for additional requirements for PV in 7.12.4

7.12.4 Additional requirements for installations that incorporate
electrical supply derived from static inverters used with uninterruptible
power supply (UPS) equipment and photovoltaic installations off-grid
or on-grid

Further on there is another reference to PV and the requirements for color coding on the DC terminals
7.12.5.2 DC conductors and battery protection methods
Colour coding for AC/DC solar/photovoltaic installations shall be in
accordance with the requirements given in 6.3.3.3.
NOTE DC circuits may be identified by means of colours or symbols.


7.12.7 Additional requirements for photovoltaic (PV) and similar
installations that provide a supply as an alternative to the main supply
7.12.7.1 The photovoltaic installation shall comply with SANS 60364-7-712
and the solar panels shall comply with SANS 61215 (for poly and mono
crystalline) or SANS 61646 (for thin-film).
7.12.7.2 The DC component of the installation shall comply with 7.15.
7.12.7.3 The rated voltage of each circuit shall be clearly indicated at all
ends of the circuit.
In the case of combined circuits, every circuit shall be easily identifiable.
Where single core conductors are used, such conductors for each circuit
shall be tied together at intervals to ensure identification, unless another
suitable arrangement is employed.
7.12.7.4 Precautions regarding parallel operation as prescribed in 7.12.6.1,
and overcurrent protection as prescribed in 7.12.4.1 shall be provided.
7.12.7.5 In addition it shall be recognised that the supply from each inverter,
battery arrangement and PV panel (or identified clustered group), constitutes
a supply, and requires arrangements similar to point of supply, which shall
include switch-disconnection arrangements and shall comply with 7.12.5.
7.12.7.6 If applicable, all exposed conductive parts may require earthing as
prescribed in 6.12.3.

In the above they reference to PV being similar to a point of supply - similar being the operative wording
They also reference to PV systems complying to 7.15 DC Installations

I find it difficult that after all the referencing to PV systems in the code that anybody would say that PV systems are excluded - The COC asks if there is an alternative supply and then tells you were to look and what to do - When you sign Section 3 , Inspections and tests you are signing to say that you have followed the regulations which include numerous references to PV

Am I still misunderstanding something

[ACEsterhuizen]

Thank you. I seems I am wrong. I stand corrected for now.

I am still confused why an INSTALLATION is defined from the point of control to the point of consumption. It should then read from the point of supply.

I will write the Chief Inspector to clear that up for me. His answer will give closure. The definition of "Installation" should then be from the point of supply to the point of consumption.

You quoted the reg:

7.12.7.5 In addition it shall be recognised that the supply from each inverter,
battery arrangement and PV panel (or identified clustered group), constitutes
a supply, and requires arrangements similar to point of supply, which shall
include switch-disconnection arrangements and shall comply with 7.12.5.

and:

3.33
electrical installation
machinery, in or on any premises, that is used for the transmission of
electrical energy from a point of control (see 3.56) to a point of
consumption (see 3.55) anywhere on the premises, including any article
that forms part of such an installation, irrespective of whether or not it is part
of the electrical circuit, but excluding
a) any machinery of the supplier that is related to the supply of electricity on
the premises,
b) any machinery that is used for the transmission of electricity of which the
voltage does not exceed 50 V, where such electricity is not derived from
the main supply of a supplier, and
c) any machinery that transmits electrical energy in telecommunication,
television or radio circuits

7.16.1 General
The distribution system is that part of the installation between the point of
control connected to the point of supply where electricity is supplied by the
supply authority, and the point of control of any particular electrical
installation connected thereto, whether it is a specific user or a communal
installation, where the user of that particular installation can switch it off.

3.56
point of control


point at which a consumer can, on or in any premises, switch off the
electrical installation from the electricity supplied from the point of supply

The inverter, battery arrangement and PV panel (or identified clustered group), constitutes a supply.

"Disputes

10. (1) Should a dispute arise over the interpretation of a health and safety standard referred to in regulation 5(1) between a user, a registered person, an electrical contractor, an approved inspection authority for electrical installations or a supplier, as the case may be, an affected person may appeal against that interpretation to the chief inspector.
(2)
A person who refers a dispute referred to in subregulation (1) shall serve a notice of dispute, setting out fully the nature and grounds of the dispute, on both the chief inspector and the person whose interpretation he or she is disputing, by personally delivering the notice of dispute or sending it by registered post.
(3)
The person whose interpretation is disputed shall within 14 working days of the date on which he or she received the notice of dispute, forward a notice setting out the reasons for his or her interpretation to the chief inspector.
(4)
The chief inspector shall, after having considered the grounds and the cause of the dispute, confirm, set aside or vary the interpretation of the safety standard in question or substitute it for the interpretation, which in the opinion of the chief inspector, ought to have been given."

[ACEsterhuizen]

And thank you, it sure was an interesting discussion. Pushing 60 and still learning. The ambiguity is also having a field day with my OCD.

Have a good day.

[GCE]

Discussion and difference of opinion is always good as it forces all sides to relook and rethink the topic
Never understood why they made the SANS10142-1 cover Black - The old cover that was Grey was appropriate
I find the more I read it the more doubts I have

Point of supply vs. Point of control is easier to explain in an example .

We are presently doing a small shopping centre and taking a 500Kva supply 400V from Eskom.
Eskom have there main CB and KWH meter in a kiosk with Eskom locks and fence and more locks
We have to run the cable from the kiosk to the Centre's main LV panel
The point of supply is not readily accessible for us to carry out a COC test at - and so the incoming mains CB in our LV panel will be the point of control at which we can legally carry out and sign off on ( the regs are written so that we are still responsible for cable sizing and faults between point of supply and point of control) .

Eskom is the supplier and the Centre management is the consumer .

We now run cables from main LV to individual shops and stop in a surface DB with an Isolator.
Along comes the tenant and appoints a contractor to install electrical in her Biltong shop.
The contractor will not have access to the main LV room and so the regulations allow him to use the isolator as point of control and sign the COC accordingly
The actual point of supply is Eskom and if he had to sign a COC from point of supply he would need to check the Centre's DB
Take a big shopping centre , there could be 5 or 6 LV panels and a transformer before he gets to point of supply which will be MV

For the Biltong shop the Centre management is effectively the supplier even though they are also the consumer in Eskom's eyes and depending where you are testing as a contractor

Is the reason that the regulations are written in such a way that shopping centres even though they are the supplier still need to adhere to the regulations.- Comes back to the point of a PV system effectively being the supply , but still falling within the point of control , you cant be a supplier and consumer , but realistic you can - No wonder we get confused

[Smiley]

Recently decided to go grid tied. Was off-grid since 2012, on select circuits.

Searching around, this thread popped up on Google, being one of the best ones I have read so far, as I have seen quite a few solar companies, been chatting on another forum, picking up the different beliefs (loosely used) between how the regulations are read. Grey manual reference above makes perfect sense.

So, the question is, from the regulations published, it all boils down to very specifics like only this type of equipment can be used, installed in this specific manner, using these regulation ito panel wire ... the home owner terms of reference.

For I see this whole thing playing out into the future where more and more electricians are going to get solar trained, which in turn will help drop the prices of getting a system installed, with a CoC, even removing the current requirement of a engineer signing off. On that point. I know of a electrical engineer who charges per array wattage. 2,5kw system costs R2.5k ex, 10kw system R6750 ex. That makes a lot of sense, for getting it signed off.

But first the CoC, panels and AC side.

Being in Bellville Cape Town, does anyone know of any suitable qualified person/s here that I can chat to?
Or can someone help me by telling me the exact requirements, in equipment terms, what must be in place, that they will sign such off, if I share what is in place?
Or refer me to the right thread if this is not the spot for that, start a specific thread on that?