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Thread: The fees must fall campaign

  1. #1
    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    The fees must fall campaign

    I’ll make my point at some undetermined future date. I couldn’t be said to have missed the point because I haven’t made my point as yet. I don't have a solution to the problem but merely observations.

    I support the fees must fall protest. I don’t support infringing the rights of others, destruction of university property and violent approaches to a real problem.
    The ‘fees must fall,’ protest is yet another implosion in our capitalistic economic system. The reasons why it seems that solutions can’t be found to free tertiary education, is because the solution seekers are looking in the wrong places for solutions, misinterpreting the Constitution of 1996 and presenting a problem statement namely free tertiary education for everyone, which has no sustainable, feasible and readily available solution which can be implemented immediately.

    The problem lies with the economic system we have in South Africa, namely a capitalistic economic system. In this economic system we have unlimited needs with limited resources.

    If we had socialism as an economic system, then free tertiary education for everyone would be a reality. That said, a compromise needs to be reached within our current capitalistic economic system.

    I support free quality, decolonized higher education for academically deserving poor students. I cannot with good conscience support free tertiary education for the rich. We live in an unequal society with a class struggle. Free tertiary education for academically deserving poor students will break this class struggle.

    The government has already conceded that it is willing to support free tertiary education for academically deserving poor students, so there’s no need whatsoever for any constitutional court battles. I would think that this would appease the vast majority of university students. From the on-going protests, it doesn’t seem to appease academically deserving poor students. My question is why? Please help me to understand

    “The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people, and must be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves.” John Adams 1787

    “Universal compulsory school attendance. Free instruction.” The former exists even in Germany, the second in Switzerland and in the United States in the case of elementary schools. If in some states of the latter country higher education institutions are also “free”, that only means in fact defraying the cost of education of the upper classes from the general tax receipts.” Karl Marx 1875

    Karl Marx would not accept a situation of free tertiary education for everyone, as this would not contribute to ending a class struggle. If you look closely at ‘Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875,’ you will infer that Karl Marx would support free tertiary education for students from working class families.

    Change in socio-economic inequalities is much needed. I support change that benefits the poor of South Africa.

    Even from the grave, this is what Karl Marx has to say.
    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” 1845

    These words are inscribed on his tombstone.

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    There is one other philosopher that I respect. John Rawls was a Harvard University Professor. He lectured for some 40 years. In 1971, he published a book entitled ‘A theory of justice.’ Rawls asks a simple question: What is the fair way to cut a cake? I’m going to modify/simplify Rawls cake analogy. The cake is tertiary education. What is the fair way to cut and distribute this tertiary education cake?

    Is it fair to give a large slice of this education cake to individuals who can afford to pay for tertiary education?

    Rawls would say that the fair distribution of tertiary education is that it must be to the benefit of everyone and if this is not possible that it must be to the economic benefit of the poorest individuals in South Africa.

    I’m aware that this is an over simplification of Rawls. I’m also aware, that I’ve excluded many other components in his philosophy.

    Photo[1]

    “According to the difference principle, it is justifiable only if the difference in expectation is to the advantage of the representative man who is worse off.” [1]

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    [2]



    I know there is a passionate professor of legal philosophy out there, who can explain these graphs in simple terms. An explanation with specific regard to the distribution of tertiary education as a ‘primary good,’ would be most appreciated? What I'm asking for for for someone to modify Rawls 'Cake,' where the cake for cutting and distribution is tertiary education.
    Rawls difference principle can be reconciled with section 9(2) of the Constitution of 1996 which allows for unequal treatment where such treatment benefits previously disadvantaged individuals.

    Section 9(2) of the Constitution of 1996 provides

    Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.


    [1] Rawls J A theory of justice (Harvard University Press 1971) 68.

    [2] Rawls J A theory of justice (Harvard University Press 1971) 66-67.




    [1] https://www.google.co.za/search?q=ka...PpMpVTHyXkM%3A
    Last edited by Vanash Naick; 22-Oct-16 at 09:25 PM.

    Vanash Naick LLB(UNISA), N.Dip(TWR)
    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” Karl Marx
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  2. #2
    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    I think that it is detructive and disgusting. If I was a student trying to learn I would have taken a baseball bat to them long ago. We live in a country full of savages who think that the solution to each and every problem is to destroy without any regard for anybody else. I know numerous students who simply want to get on with their lives.

    My daughters WILL NOT study in this $h1thole filled with self important destructive aholes. I will put them on a plane to OZ to go study among civilized people.

    I REFUSE to employ anybody who was involved in, or support this lot. They should grey-listed as unemployable ignorant destructive savages.

    YUCK, SIS, THIS COUNTRY IS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. People who destroy their own education system, how f#$$^%$%$cking stupid can you get.

    I have extremely strong feelings about this and I feel the anger welling up inside of me as I write this. I want to go there and bash some people right now.

    I have no time for people who are unwilling to solve problems in a constructive manner. I won't employ them because I will not risk having some moron destroy one of my machines because they demand training on the machine - F#$$^%%^KING IDIOTS

    Free education is NOT going to put knowledge in their stupid entitled thick heads. They have to get off their asses and apply themselves. All that they are proving is that they are incapable of applying themselves to the task at hand which is to study.

    This country is powered by the 4 A's as I like to call it: Arrogance, Aggression, Apathy and Aholes! George Carlin has the right outlook on life - F%$ck'em let them drown themselves and laugh at them while they do so!

    Anyway, this white man who drives a piece of $h1t car, lives in a piece of $h1t house and wishes that he had the frigging common sense 30 years ago to get off his lazy ass and pay for a decent education is now going to get back to work (to complete my 12-18 hours a day 7 days a week) tasks. I got to work at 8am and I am leaving at 8pm to do the same every day. I educate myself each and every day and I challenge anybody to take me on on the breadth of my technical knowledge.

    White privilege - wat jy waar kry , come to my house and look at my life, there ain't no privilege, all there is is hard work.

    Edited because I spell really badly when I get angry!
    How easily someone is offended is directly proportional to how stupid they are.
    ~GS Elevator

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  4. #3
    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Adrian, one of my objectives in life is to understand life from my fellow human beings perspective regardless of who they are or what their perspective is. I want to attempt to understand why people hold certain views, why they feel they way they do and how I would react if I were in their position, given their perspective. I want to understand how people arrive at certain conclusions.
    The fees must fall protest is a historic tipping point in South Africa. Don’t you think that at the very least every South African should try to reason this out for the greater good and well-being of our country?

    Vanash Naick LLB(UNISA), N.Dip(TWR)
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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanash Naick View Post
    Adrian, one of my objectives in life is to understand life from my fellow human beings perspective regardless of who they are or what their perspective is. I want to attempt to understand why people hold certain views, why they feel they way they do and how I would react if I were in their position, given their perspective. I want to understand how people arrive at certain conclusions.
    The fees must fall protest is a historic tipping point in South Africa. Don’t you think that at the very least every South African should try to reason this out for the greater good and well-being of our country?
    NO, F%^%^ck them. I do not negotiate with terrorists. They should be put against a wall and whipped! Punishment in this country is a total joke - It should be swift and harsh. You burn a painting that does not belong to you and you get 5 lashes - finished.

    This country has too much democracy and f%$%$ckall responsibility - each and every person think that it is their democratic right to destroy whatever they want and trample on the rights of others.

    This country's leaders have no morals or values and are not worth looking up to, hell I don't even look down to them, they are simply cockroaches not worth my attention. The protesting students are exactly the same, they are cockroaches.

    If I was in charge of campus security each and every one of those students would have been shot black and blue with rubber bullets!

    So, let me state this clearly so that there is no misunderstanding: F%$^%$CK THEM, I hope that every single protester fails, has a miserable life and that each and every one of their nightmare come true!
    How easily someone is offended is directly proportional to how stupid they are.
    ~GS Elevator

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    Bronze Member msmoorad's Avatar
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    the simplest explanation, according to me is that these students are blaming the WRONG people for their problems.
    not to mention seeking to address their grievances in the worst way possible.

    who promised them free education?
    wasn't it their own ANC "comrades"?

    so why not go to their homes & offices and vandalise stuff there?
    not that vanadlism would ever help them

    then comes the attitude of most(not all) black students
    they feel very entitled and dont work as hard as others

    i see many of them giving preference to having the latest cellphones, wearing designer label clothes and doing their hair up with expensive extensions etc.
    and students of other races dont pay much attention to these things, choosing to focus on the actual purpose for which they have enrolled at uni.
    A “conspiracy theory” no longer means an event explained by a conspiracy. Instead, it now means any explanation, or even a fact, that is out of step with the government’s explanation and that of its media pimps.

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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    This is the intellectual capability of the students involved in this nonsense....




    ...and I agree with this guy

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    How easily someone is offended is directly proportional to how stupid they are.
    ~GS Elevator

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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Is there a third force?

    To divide and rule could only tear us apart;
    In every man's chest, - there beats a heart.
    So soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionaries;
    And I don't want my people to be tricked by mercenaries.
    I don't think that there is a third force present in the 'fees must fall protest.' I think that a chaotic situation is an opportunity for criminals. I think that criminals are taking advantage of the chaos.

    To the students leaders throughout the country, try and win over your brothers and sisters without resorting to intimidation. A leader has the ability to get people to willingly follow a course.

    This is what a 'sage philosopher,' says about letting the 'system,' allow you to be in conflict with your brothers and sisters:

    Would you let the system make you kill your brother man?
    No, no, no, no, no, no! No, Dread, no!
    Would you make the system make you kill your brother man?
    (No, Dread, no!)
    Would you make the system get on top of your head again?
    (No, Dread, no!)
    Well, the biggest man you ever did see was - was just a baby
    In this life, in this life, in this life,
    In this, oh sweet life:
    We're (we're coming in from the cold);
    We're coming in (coming in), coming in (coming in),
    Coming in (coming in), coming in (coming in),
    Coming in from the cold.

    Vanash Naick LLB(UNISA), N.Dip(TWR)
    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” Karl Marx
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    Silver Member Trickzta's Avatar
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    This is an intelligent question that everyone should be asking. It deserves further discussion and hopefully leads to a solution that is genuine and attainable.

    The problem won't go away without some serious soul searching and a workable solution. It is a critical make or break issue that we're facing.

    This is a typical situation being misunderstood by the relevant players, by design or through ignorance and/or arrogance. As with colonial medicine the 'cure' treats the symptoms without addressing the root cause/s. These cures usually have side effects, unintended consequences or in some cases intended consequences. These consequences tend to aggravate or perpetuate the symptoms.

    To find a workable solution the root cause/s of the problem would have to be isolated and understood before a meaningful and lasting solution is possible.

    While I don't profess to have all the answers I feel it's worthwhile starting the conversation.

    Poverty, hardship and harassment, unemployment and poor prospects of gaining employment or attaining a decent education. No privacy in overcrowded fire hazards. No running potable water. No ablution block or flushing toilets. No cell phone coverage or access to WiFi or the internet. And, and....and....

    No real prospect of promises being honoured with no or little chance of genuine legal representation or assisstance in getting a fair hearing. No justice.

    It's almost impossible to break the chains of poverty. Forced removal from land you lived on without compensation. No prospects available on land you're moved to. No basic facilities on new land except possiblly long drop toilets or portable units.

    Those lucky enough to have a job have to run the gauntlet to evade criminals laying in wait to steal their wages. This pittance of a salary has to clothe and feed multiple families.

    Those in Ivory Towers (TITs)have private security companies to protect them. The poorest don't even have a Police Precint. No pay phones, no cell coverage to call the nearest Police Station.

    TITs don't have a clue what it's like to live like this. They rubbish these people in between sipping a chilled fruit smoothie or single malt on the rocks. They adjust their aircon units after eating half of their hot meal that would feed a large family living in shacks and shanties.

    Granted not all students come from rural squatter camps.

    But even those students that come from brick houses with electricity and water are tired of the unkept promises. They also often have more than one family under their roof.

    There are areas where the quality of life is bearable. Tarred roads and lighted streets at night with a Police Station or Sattelite Police Station. But even the students living here are victims of circumstance. They too are experiencing a New South Africa that favours the few and makes empty promises that are repeated every time that there's an election looming.

    They too are scraping the pot while food prices soar and the cost of living increases. The Independence that the whole world's media trumpeted as another Madiba miracle called the "Rainbow Nation" was in reality a continuance of Colonial Rule with certain changes that basically allowed freedom of movement and free association. The right to vote for a new constitution that in practise protected the Colonial Empire's claim to the natural resources that is still to this day being plundered. Price setting and monetary controls being manipulated to keep the cost of our minerals artificially low.

    Marikana a deliberate and contrived massacre was intended to carry a strong message to the masses. It shocked the system to the core. Financial Apartheid is alive and well.

    To many it would seem that the Authorities only respond to mass action. The individual has no chance of being heard. The masses too are only heard when there is violence or destruction being noticed by a blinkered media or when the property being damaged belongs to the upper ruling class or to big business or mining houses.

    There can be no lasting solution without addressing the abject poverty that pervades our country.

    While I don't condone violence and destruction I ask "How else can the voices of the masses get the attention that they deserve?"

    I support #feesmustfall in principle.

    That so many people go to bed, work or school on an empty stomach in one of the richest countries in the world is indicative of a nation in decline. A nation inviting public protests and civil unrest to escalate into conflict situations with armed forces that are not shy to use executive powers to 'authorise' (legalise) the use of maximimum force.

    The student unrest has, in my humble opinion, been allowed to escalate when it could have easily been nipped in the bud. Student leaders are identified and their group of supporters are also marked as a possible future threat or asset to the ruling party and to anyone having access to these lists.

    The cellphones being used to communicate are also recorded by a data capture device called a grabber. Future opponents of the rulers are now easily tracked and their cell numbers, their contacts, emails, calls etc., are recorded.

    Social Media will be used to rally the troops (so to speak) when the time is right.

    Many students are recruited into organisations that use the situation for their personal goals. Had the protest been normalised from the beginning the students would be back in class without being coerced into joining disgruntled groups of political agitators.

    The group/s involved in recruiting have agents trained in crowd manipulation tactics. A crowd can be swayed by a small group of provocateurs using crowd psycology techniques.

    The individual is caused to act out of character by the use of carefully staged circumstances.

    Should a group of provocateurs begin throwing rocks and bottles the crowd will more often than not follow suit. The situation escalates from there with new leaders emerging as heroes and role models with the media promoting these 'heroes' and fanning these flames of rebellion.

    The shortage of genuine role models and peer pressure also play a role in the lives of students from certain social-structures not of their own making.

    These are some thoughts that I'd like to share. This topic is huge and I'm sure I'll add some more as the exploration of this thread grows. Hopefully we can make a difference.

    Anyone claiming to be South African has a stake in our future. This problem cannot be wished away. Bad attitudes don't help and neither does ignorant social or racial profiling.

    The students are caught up in the thrill of the cyclic nature of the events unfolding. These events are fuelled by social and mainstream media promote the ramping up of resistance and provocateurs up their violent strategy.

    Regime change lies at the heart of external influence on these young minds.

    Colonial Masters never leave treasure behind, unless it suits their purposes or benefits them in another way. In which case it's called an investment and they'll collect it later.
    If the outcome of a vote is unknown then voting is tantamount to gambling. If the outcome of a vote is known, then voting is futile. Robert Rorschach.

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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trickzta View Post
    This is an intelligent question that everyone should be asking. It deserves further discussion and hopefully leads to a solution that is genuine and attainable.

    The problem won't go away without some serious soul searching and a workable solution. It is a critical make or break issue that we're facing.

    This is a typical situation being misunderstood by the relevant players, by design or through ignorance and/or arrogance. As with colonial medicine the 'cure' treats the symptoms without addressing the root cause/s. These cures usually have side effects, unintended consequences or in some cases intended consequences. These consequences tend to aggravate or perpetuate the symptoms.

    To find a workable solution the root cause/s of the problem would have to be isolated and understood before a meaningful and lasting solution is possible.

    While I don't profess to have all the answers I feel it's worthwhile starting the conversation.

    Poverty, hardship and harassment, unemployment and poor prospects of gaining employment or attaining a decent education. No privacy in overcrowded fire hazards. No running potable water. No ablution block or flushing toilets. No cell phone coverage or access to WiFi or the internet. And, and....and....

    No real prospect of promises being honoured with no or little chance of genuine legal representation or assisstance in getting a fair hearing. No justice.

    It's almost impossible to break the chains of poverty. Forced removal from land you lived on without compensation. No prospects available on land you're moved to. No basic facilities on new land except possiblly long drop toilets or portable units.

    Those lucky enough to have a job have to run the gauntlet to evade criminals laying in wait to steal their wages. This pittance of a salary has to clothe and feed multiple families.

    Those in Ivory Towers (TITs)have private security companies to protect them. The poorest don't even have a Police Precint. No pay phones, no cell coverage to call the nearest Police Station.

    TITs don't have a clue what it's like to live like this. They rubbish these people in between sipping a chilled fruit smoothie or single malt on the rocks. They adjust their aircon units after eating half of their hot meal that would feed a large family living in shacks and shanties.


    There can be no lasting solution without addressing the abject poverty that pervades our country.

    While I don't condone violence and destruction I ask "How else can the voices of the masses get the attention that they deserve?"

    I support #feesmustfall in principle.

    That so many people go to bed, work or school on an empty stomach in one of the richest countries in the world is indicative of a nation in decline. A nation inviting public protests and civil unrest to escalate into conflict situations with armed forces that are not shy to use executive powers to 'authorise' (legalise) the use of maximimum force.

    The student unrest has, in my humble opinion, been allowed to escalate when it could have easily been nipped in the bud. Student leaders are identified and their group of supporters are also marked as a possible future threat or asset to the ruling party and to anyone having access to these lists.

    The cellphones being used to communicate are also recorded by a data capture device called a grabber. Future opponents of the rulers are now easily tracked and their cell numbers, their contacts, emails, calls etc., are recorded.


    Anyone claiming to be South African has a stake in our future. This problem cannot be wished away. Bad attitudes don't help and neither does ignorant social or racial profiling.

    The students are caught up in the thrill of the cyclic nature of the events unfolding. These events are fueled by social and mainstream media promote the ramping up of resistance and provocateurs up their violent strategy.
    Not all of these students are genuinely poor. When reality sets in for many of them, they will realize that some of their student leaders and many of their fellow students come from wealthy families and have nothing to lose, whereas the poor student has everything to lose. A rich student and/or student leader taking part in these protest don't really care about the possibility of a disciplinary record, expulsion and criminal record because they know that their rich parents can simply send them overseas to another university.

    The poor students will eventually separate themselves from the rich students. Poor people are not stupid, they see that many first year students have luxury cars and huge amounts of spending money, whilst they have to take up to two taxis and a bus to get to campus, and not even have a meal for that day.

    Police brutality is a scourge, but that's not my point, many students were injured by rubber bullets. The rich injured students were treated in private medical facilities, whilst the poor injured students were treated in government facilities. The class struggle shows itself again here.

    I appreciate that the university students throughout the country are our future leaders, doctors, lawyers, chartered accountants, engineers, executives etc. I think that they should compromise.

    Free tertiary education for academically deserving poor students is feasible and sustainable. The government is already making concessions in this regard.
    Last edited by Vanash Naick; 24-Oct-16 at 11:12 PM.

    Vanash Naick LLB(UNISA), N.Dip(TWR)
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    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    My feeling is that if you are academically good, then you should get a bursary to further your studies, but to make it a La Carte, blanket for everyone, to me is a major mistake.

    Next there is going to be demonstrations for free boarding and lodging.

    There will be no incentive to make it through tertiary education.
    I never had so called university entrance matric marks, was close though, and my parents could hardly afford to send me to tertiary education.
    I eventually got a bursary from Phillips SA, with very stringent requirements. I had to be present at every class, as the Technikon took roll call, and had to pass every single module. I then had to work for Phillips for a period of 5 years to pay for my bursary.

    I sure made sure I was at every class, and passed all my modules, and I really valued the opportunity that was presented to me. I saw from my other colleagues who did not have these requirements/incentives, how they simply wasted their lives away.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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