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Thread: Is an assault sufficient reason for dismissal?

  1. #11
    Silver Member bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BusFact View Post
    As feedback for those of you who contributed to this thread, the employee has been dismissed. Thanks for all your level headed posts, it helps to get advice when you can't see the wood for the trees.

    However the soap opera does not end there. The brother will be issued with his notice of disciplinary action next week.

    In addition the victim has been accused by the aggressor of threatening to have him fired on numerous occasions, and apparently there are several witnesses to this. So my next question is whether threatening a fellow employee that you will get them fired is something that we can discipline on. Its pretty obvious that he did indeed attempt to carry out this apparent threat as he has repeatedly pointed out to management whenever the aggressor was shirking his duties. They do not even work in the same section of the factory, nor did he ever report anyone else. Its also a chronic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    In any event, I do need to address it and was wondering what you guys thought the severity of such a case should be and what would he even be accused of having done?

    Then I am going to rename the place "fawlty towers".
    in my days working at a plant the rules
    where simple if you get into a physical
    fight both parties are dismissed it didnt
    matter if the one didnt fight back both
    where dismissed i cannot tell you how
    they handled it at the CCMA but as
    you say both are guilty so get rid of
    them both but speak to a professional

    if someone tells someone else they will
    get them fired then that is grounds for
    a dismissal and it is grounds for
    aggravation both parties are guilty so
    let them walk if you can

  2. #12
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    YES!!!!

  3. #13
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    if someone tells someone else they will get them fired then that is grounds for a dismissal
    No, it almost certainly isn't, unless:

    (a) This is not the first time that the employee has threatened to get someone else dismissed;

    (b) Graduated disciplinary measures were applied for previous incidents (e.g. final written warning);

    (c) The employee was afforded a reasonable opportunity to correct their behaviour (e.g. interpersonal training); and

    (d) The exact same disciplinary process has been consistently applied for other employees engaging in the same or similar behaviour.

    With a few extreme exceptions (e.g. threatening to murder someone), you can't fire someone on the spot for saying that they are going to do something when they haven't actually done anything.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

  4. #14
    Silver Member bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    No, it almost certainly isn't, unless:

    (a) This is not the first time that the employee has threatened to get someone else dismissed;

    (b) Graduated disciplinary measures were applied for previous incidents (e.g. final written warning);

    (c) The employee was afforded a reasonable opportunity to correct their behaviour (e.g. interpersonal training); and

    (d) The exact same disciplinary process has been consistently applied for other employees engaging in the same or similar behaviour.

    With a few extreme exceptions (e.g. threatening to murder someone), you can't fire someone on the spot for saying that they are going to do something when they haven't actually done anything.
    ok i can point you to a steel
    plant it is closed last time i
    saw it on the news there
    policy was if 2 employees
    fight both get fired that is
    it

    the part where he told the
    guy he will get him fired is
    not ethical but that is not
    the point i know for a fact
    that when i worked at that
    steel plant long time ago if
    you fight both goes and
    that remained policy till it
    closed down this year

  5. #15
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    the part where he told the guy he will get him fired is not ethical but that is not the point
    Actually, this is exactly the point because just one post earlier you stated this:

    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    if someone tells someone else they will get them fired then that is grounds for a dismissal
    Getting into a fight and saying that you are going to get someone fired are two completely different things.

    Scenario 1: Employee A says that he is going to get Employee B fired. Employee B responds by initiating a fight.

    Scenario 2: Employee A says that he is going to get Employee B fired. Employee B responds by lodging a complaint with management.

    In Scenario 1, you might dismiss both employees. But if you did dismiss Employee A, it would likely be for what he did (i.e. fighting with another employee), not for what he said.

    In Scenario 2, you almost certainly would not dismiss Employee A unless this was a repeat offence. Instead, you would probably organise a discplinary hearing and issue a final written warning.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

  6. Thanks given for this post:

    BusFact (07-Mar-16)

  7. #16
    Silver Member bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Actually, this is exactly the point because just one post earlier you stated this:



    Getting into a fight and saying that you are going to get someone fired are two completely different things.

    Scenario 1: Employee A says that he is going to get Employee B fired. Employee B responds by initiating a fight.

    Scenario 2: Employee A says that he is going to get Employee B fired. Employee B responds by lodging a complaint with management.

    In Scenario 1, you might dismiss both employees. But if you did dismiss Employee A, it would likely be for what he did (i.e. fighting with another employee), not for what he said.

    In Scenario 2, you almost certainly would not dismiss Employee A unless this was a repeat offence. Instead, you would probably organise a discplinary hearing and issue a final written warning.
    so am i not allowed to have an
    opinion now ok please include
    the bit where i said that he must
    speak to a professional next time
    it is only fair is it not

    see i did use the word IF there
    and i did use the word professional

    meaning if possible and getting
    a professional was my words
    Last edited by bones; 07-Mar-16 at 07:30 AM.

  8. #17
    Silver Member bones's Avatar
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    just a question if one employee tells the
    other employee that they will get them
    fired and is successful what does that
    mean for the other employees that saw
    it

    you do want to consider that first also
    consider labor relations between the
    employer and employees he cannot
    let it slide because this employee now
    have the ability to fire other employees

    i can argue that dismissal for both the
    employees are in the best interest of
    the company because you cannot
    allow this type of behavior

    just remember what was the cause
    of the aggravation it can be argued
    that the employee that stated that
    that he will get the other one fired
    caused the argument deliberately to
    get the other employee fired hence
    the one manipulated the situation
    and the other got aggressive so in
    my opinion both are guilty and the
    CCMA will have a hell of a time
    proving that the employee did not
    intent to manipulate the situation
    or outcome

    so if i got fired because of someone
    trying to take my job i will go to the
    CCMA and court because he was
    successful

    if i am the employer i now sit with
    a employee that manipulate a
    situation to get someone fired how
    can i trust that employee ever again

    if i was the employer i will speak to a
    professional and see what can be
    done to get both employees dismissed

    note the getting a professional bit it is
    important

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Getting into a fight and saying that you are going to get someone fired are two completely different things.

    Scenario 1: Employee A says that he is going to get Employee B fired. Employee B responds by initiating a fight.

    Scenario 2: Employee A says that he is going to get Employee B fired. Employee B responds by lodging a complaint with management.

    In Scenario 1, you might dismiss both employees. But if you did dismiss Employee A, it would likely be for what he did (i.e. fighting with another employee), not for what he said.

    In Scenario 2, you almost certainly would not dismiss Employee A unless this was a repeat offence. Instead, you would probably organise a discplinary hearing and issue a final written warning.
    Thanks, that was my gut feel too. Just looking for confirmation.

  10. #19
    Silver Member bones's Avatar
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    so the other guy walks free
    messed up world we live in

  11. #20
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    so am i not allowed to have an opinion now
    Having an opinion is fine. Posting factually incorrect advice that could land someone in serious trouble if they follow it is not fine. And relying on a "be sure to speak to a professional" as a catch-all disclaimer doesn't make it fine.

    Many of my small business clients have paid expensive penalties after a CCMA or Labour Court hearing because some cowboy told them that it was perfectly OK to hire and fire as they please. We have laws in this country that regulate employment. If you want to share your opinion about those laws, then go right ahead. But if you want to tell people how those laws work when you don't actually know, then I'm going to call you out on it.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

  12. Thank given for this post:

    adrianh (09-Mar-16), Entropy Group (08-Mar-16)

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