Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 33

Thread: Titanium Geyser Element: Solution To Reduce Your Hot Water Consumption By 50%?

  1. #11
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked 695 Times in 593 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverNodashi View Post
    I am / was interested in your equipment, but there's no prices on your website?
    Send me your email address and I will get it to you.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

  2. #12
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Please let me have some pricing. Thanks.

    dave@solarex.co.za

  3. #13
    New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    I know this is old, but thought that it was worth replying. We have an element that we are about to launch that works specifically with horizontal Kwikot geysers. It delivers 20-45% savings on a standard coil. The inventors of this have done many labs tests. We have done field tests measuring water and power use on the geyser and confirmed results. I know this sound untrue, but the figures speak for themselves.
    The issue with the argument about a specific amount of power heating a specific amount of water is that it does not take into account: standing losses and heating inefficiencies inherent in the current element structure.
    In 2 test cases we did, both 150 liter geysers, one a house of 2 people using 140l average per day, one a house of 4 people using 245l. The 2 person house used an average of 44 watts per liter, the bigger house used 36, with the standard coil. With the new coil this changed to 35 for the small house and 24 for the larger house. Savings of 20% and 33% respectively.
    We are continuing field tests for the rest of this year to ensure that we can be confident of the savings in different situations. What has become very clear is that how you use the water (the draw off profile) and the amount used relative to the size of the geyser does have a significant impact. I am not an engineer. I am surrounded by them and none would believe a word of this. The evidence is clear and they are now gently baffled, but gaining belief.
    We will launch early in 2017. We will have many customer testimonials with measured results. Northface will not sell a product that is not tested by us and proven effective.

  4. #14
    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    4,923
    Thanks
    576
    Thanked 934 Times in 755 Posts
    Hi Richard, welcome to the forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by richardpickering View Post
    .....The issue with the argument about a specific amount of power heating a specific amount of water is that it does not take into account: standing losses and heating inefficiencies inherent in the current element structure.
    It was already covered previously in this thread why a standard geyser element is already very close to being 100% efficient at converting electrical energy into heat energy and putting that heat energy into the water in a geyser. There are no 'heating inefficiencies inherrent in the current element structure'.

    Standing losses are, as their name suggests, heat losses through the insulation over time as the hot water is standing. Standing losses of an insulated cylinder/geyser will be identical regardless of the type of element that initially heated the water.

    You could, in theory, reduce standing losses by either heating the water to a lower final temperature or even by heating the water slower so the standing temperature is lower for longer but either way that's not about the 'type' of element, it's only about the power of the element being lower. The flip side of reducing the power of the element is that the water takes longer to heat so you're more likely to suffer with cold water during times of high demand.


    Quote Originally Posted by richardpickering View Post
    In 2 test cases we did, both 150 liter geysers, one a house of 2 people using 140l average per day, one a house of 4 people using 245l. The 2 person house used an average of 44 watts per liter, the bigger house used 36, with the standard coil. With the new coil this changed to 35 for the small house and 24 for the larger house. Savings of 20% and 33% respectively.
    If you're electrical energy consumption was reduced then either less volume of hot water was produced or the same volume was produced but it was at a lower temperature.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardpickering View Post
    What has become very clear is that how you use the water (the draw off profile) and the amount used relative to the size of the geyser does have a significant impact.
    Erm yes, if the 'draw off profile' has an effect on how much hot water is being consumed then yes it would have a significant impact on power consumption but I don't see the link between the 'draw off profile' and the element.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardpickering View Post
    We will launch early in 2017. We will have many customer testimonials with measured results. Northface will not sell a product that is not tested by us and proven effective.
    After a quick Google it appears Northface already have it for sale on their website;
    Econocoil - efficient water heating

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Econocoil.jpg 
Views:	400 
Size:	19.4 KB 
ID:	6587

    Save 20-40% of your water heating bill simply by changing to this element. Applies only to Kwikot 150l horizontal geysers.

    Read more

    The Econocoil minimises the heat losses and maximises the heating efficiency of the geyser. It does this by moving the heated part of the element further from the edge of the geyser and using convection to move the hot water to the more insulated part of the geyser.

    3 month money back satisfaction guarantee
    12 month warranty (extendable to 24 or 36 months)

    The perfect time to install Econocoil is when your standard element breaks and needs replacing.

    This is a product that allows people who cannot afford R15,000 or more for a solar system, to at least make a real dent in their heating expenses.
    A couple of things confusing me here, firstly the claimed savings on the website go as high as 40%. Secondly the way it's claimed it saves energy is by moving the heated part of the element further from the edge of the geyser and using convection to move the hot water to the more insulated part of the geyser

    So, by the element being a different shape it's possible to reduce electrical consumption by 40%...??? Bold claims indeed, call me a sceptic but I'd like to see the proof.
    _______________________________________________

    _______________________________________________

  5. #15
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked 695 Times in 593 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I am with Andy on this one. An element is actually a resistor, which currently is the most efficient load/heat transfer for electricity, unlike inductive loads causing higher currents to get the amount of energy from the supply to the load.
    So moving the element (resistor) around in a metal enclosure with water is not going to make the amount of energy less or more required to heat a litre of water from a specific temperature to another specific temperature.
    There are 3 parts, which will change the amount of energy required to heat up a litre of water
    1. The amount of heat loss into the environment
    2. The change in temperature from x and to y
    3. How quickly you want to heat the water from x to y

    The higher the final temperature, the more energy required, because the heat loss starts creeping into the system.
    The quicker you want to heat the water, the higher the instantaneous energy is required.

    At the end, the amount of energy((KWH) in both the cases, higher temperature and time, will translate to the same in kilowatt hours, provided the insulation on the geyser is good. The difference is the size of the electrical wire to carry the current for the higher instant energy applied.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

  6. #16
    New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Thanks for the Welcome Andy D. I am not an expert as many of you on this forum clearly are. I am only an accountant and software guy, 12 months into the renewable space.
    Obviously the Econocoil claims are bold. I have yet to meet anybody, myself included, who is not massively skeptical. Hence the fact that we are measuring performance in peoples homes. We only listed the product once we had the field results in. Lab results are consistent, but only lab results.

    Every engineer I know has said it is not possible, or it is possible, but not to such a degree. We will be collecting more measured information as we install more units.
    We are using water and power loggers on the geysers to ensure that data is available. If there is anybody on this forum who has a 150 or 200 l horizontal Kwikot I would love to offer you a free trial (with full metering) so we can get your views. We operate in Cape Town.

    I will post additional results here as I get them. I would value anybody's input. Essentially I have evidence to date that it works. I need more as we will only sell something to our customers that does what it claims.
    Essentially the point i think that is not being discussed sufficiently is that there is a big metal plate on the Kwikot. This loses far more hear than any other part of the geyser. Moving the heating process as well as the hot water from this point has a significant impact.
    You are right to be skeptical. Who wants to test it out?! Free.

  7. #17
    Platinum Member SilverNodashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg, South Africa
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 188 Times in 136 Posts
    I agree with Andy on this, these claims are probably just "fancy sales pitch". The 40% savings is far too much in my opinion. In fact, I don't see how this can save any money at all, regardless of the fact that it's a bit further away from the metal plate. Doesn't make any sense at all. I would have been happy to run a trail, but I guess the best way to run a proper trail, would have been to have two identical geysers, with identical plumbing, and then take out say 100L of both at a time, and then record the energy used and time needed to heatup to the same temperature, say 60 degrees Celcius.

  8. #18
    New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Folks, there is not a single engineer who believed the claims. We have converted many, who remain a bit baffled. I only care about the numbers, I have no engineering skills to throw at the problem.
    I can only assure you that we will not deliver a sales line that is not backed up by measured proof. We are in the process of field testing. We will install metering equipment (power and water) with the next 10 customer installations.
    The claims are crazy. We had the same reaction. I am happy to share the lab test results and the results from the field. These follow the tests that you have outlined above. In our tests we tested different draw off profiles, but all over a 24 hour period, even if there was only 1 draw. We also measured the exit temperature of the water from the tank at the end and adjusted for temperature differential.

    In the field we have measured a week of use with standard coil and then our one. This is obviously the test than counts and we need to see how the savings compare in different use-cases.
    We are continuing with these tests and will publish them all on the website. We will only officially launch the product in Jan 2017, assuming that the results from our field tests continue to verify what we have found in the lab.
    If anybody on this thread is in Cape Town and would like to be included in the tests then I am happy to do this. If you are converted you can buy your Econocoil. If not we will remove all the equipment, return your original element and publish your results with the rest of the ones that we collect.

  9. #19
    Platinum Member SilverNodashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg, South Africa
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 188 Times in 136 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by richardpickering View Post
    Folks, there is not a single engineer who believed the claims. We have converted many, who remain a bit baffled. I only care about the numbers, I have no engineering skills to throw at the problem.
    I can only assure you that we will not deliver a sales line that is not backed up by measured proof. We are in the process of field testing. We will install metering equipment (power and water) with the next 10 customer installations.
    The claims are crazy. We had the same reaction. I am happy to share the lab test results and the results from the field. These follow the tests that you have outlined above. In our tests we tested different draw off profiles, but all over a 24 hour period, even if there was only 1 draw. We also measured the exit temperature of the water from the tank at the end and adjusted for temperature differential.

    In the field we have measured a week of use with standard coil and then our one. This is obviously the test than counts and we need to see how the savings compare in different use-cases.
    We are continuing with these tests and will publish them all on the website. We will only officially launch the product in Jan 2017, assuming that the results from our field tests continue to verify what we have found in the lab.
    If anybody on this thread is in Cape Town and would like to be included in the tests then I am happy to do this. If you are converted you can buy your Econocoil. If not we will remove all the equipment, return your original element and publish your results with the rest of the ones that we collect.
    So, please explain to me, how exactly do you get more efficiency out of an element? 40% in your case? Crunching the numbers, it means a 1Kw element only need 600W to heat up the same amount of water, over the same time period to the same temperature, or 1200W on a 2KW, or 1800W on a 3KW element!

  10. #20
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked 695 Times in 593 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Their is a finite amount of energy required to heat up a litre of water, irrespective of the method used. In some instances the cost of energy due to the type of energy may cost more or less. In this case we are referring to a resistive element used to transfer the heat generated by the element to the water. This is called specific heat

    Quote Originally Posted by [URL=http://www.800mainstreet.com/2/002-24.html
    Specific heat is a physical property of materials. It is used to describe heat transfer. The specific heat of a material is an intensive property that is independent of the amount of a substance. It is defined as the amount of energy needed to heat one gram of the substance by 1 degree Celsius. The mathematical expression is Specific heat = calories / grams oC

    Specific heat is essential when designing engine cooling systems, constructing electronic circuits so they do not overheat, designing refrigeration equipment and everything that involves heat transfer.

    The amount of heat needed to increase the temperature of any object can be figured using this relationship.
    Heat in calories = mass in gram x temperature change oC x specific heat [ cal / gram oC]
    The formula has four terms in it. You can calculate any of them if you have the other three.
    So how can a resistive element be more efficient than another resistive element when fed with the same amount of energy?

    What may not be disclosed here, is that an intelligent device is connected to the geyser, which then uses an algorithm to calculate when power is applied to the element. This then will give you the types of electrical savings as claimed, but simply changing an element of the same value to another of the same value WILL NOT SAVE YOU ENERGY. Adding a geyser blanket and cladding pipe work is another means of reducing standing losses.

    I think that the whole story is not being published.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. [Question] May plumbers change a geyser element?
    By Frank The Blade in forum Electrical Contracting Industry Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 13-Apr-15, 08:46 PM
  2. Oven Element Replacement
    By rfnel in forum Electrical Contracting Industry Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 29-Jun-11, 11:08 AM
  3. Take our snap electricity consumption survey.
    By Dave A in forum News Archive
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 18-Feb-08, 08:51 AM

Tags for this Thread

Did you like this article? Share it with your favourite social network.

Did you like this article? Share it with your favourite social network.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •