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Thread: Unfair dismissal or what?

  1. #11
    Diamond Member Citizen X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xBrightDiamondX View Post
    Hi all
    I recently got fired on the spot without notice during my probation consultation session on 25 June 2015. I received a notice to attend this session the same day i came back to work from sick leave on the 23rd June 2015. Reasons on the notice were "Recent poor work attitude and work performance.

    !. The company representative made a complete false statement. They claimed i worked in a certain department in the company where i never worked, They also claimed that i earn more hourly rate than actually stated on my payslip and said that i was supposed to earn less than half of that. I have witnesses to this.

    2. The 2 witnesses they used to testify against me, their statements were both related to 2 days after the date of the notice i received.

    3. I was on a probation contract for 6 months that were terminated by this session 2 months prematurely.

    I have been to the CCMA and i was told this is an unfair dismissal, they proceeded to contact the company whom in return told CCMA that i were demoted from and artisan to an assistant. I am totally unaware of this.

    As far as i understand this company that i worked for is well known for hiring and firing as it please them.
    I also have the complete Probation counseling session recorded which i would like to use as evidence shout it be allowed or required.

    What is it that i can claim for in this case with CCMA against my employer?
    Can i sue the company representative for defamation for giving false statements about me?
    The CCMA did mention they can with evidence get me to return to my work on a permanent basis, not back as in probation but i fear work conditions and situations will worsen.
    Any help?
    You do have valid grounds to pursue unfair dismissal with the CCMA!


    Firstly, there are only three grounds that an employer may dismiss an employee, namely, misconduct, incapacity and operational requirements.

    1. In your case the employers grounds are incapacity, and in particular, poor work performance during probation;
    2. Schedule 8(LRA) places a demand on employers to do certain things in practice, before a dismissal;
    3. There must be sufficient training, guidance and counselling with a view to enable the employee to perform his duties satisfactorily during a probabtion period;
    4. The employer must make it very clear to the employee on probation what the work performance standards are and where specifically the employee is not meeting these standards, for instance, if a data capturer, on probation, has the task of successfully capturing and processing 30 vehicle finance applications per day, and the employee only processes 15, there is a discrepancy between actual results and desired results. The employer must make this clear;
    5. The employer must then assist the employee by training to meet this work performance standard;
    6. The employer must then provide a date for review of work performance and measure the employees performance during this period

    The relevant statutory provision is Schedule 8, article 8(1), which I include here:


    Incapacity: Poor work performance
    Probation
    (1) (a) An employer may require a newly-hired employee to serve a period of probation before the appointment of the employee is confirmed.
    (b) The purpose of probation is to give the employer an opportunity to evaluate the employee’s performance before confirming the appointment.
    (c) Probation should not be used for purposes not contemplated by this Code to deprive employees of the status of permanent employment. For example, a practice of dismissing employees who complete their probation periods and replacing them with newly-hired employees, is not consistent with the purpose of probation and constitutes an unfair labour practice.
    (d) The period of probation should be determined in advance and be of reasonable duration. The length of the probationary period should be determined with reference to the nature of the job and the time it takes to determine the employee’s suitability for continued employment.
    (e) During the probationary period, the employee’s performance should be assessed. An employer should give an employee reasonable evaluation, instruction, training, guidance or counselling in order to allow the employee to render a satisfactory service.
    (f) If the employer determines that the employee’s performance is below standard, the employer should advise the employee of any aspects in which the employer considers the employee to be failing to meet the required performance standards. If the employer believes that the employee is incompetent, the employer should advise the employee of the respects in which the employee is not competent. The employer may either extend the probationary period or dismiss the employee after complying with subitems (g) or (h), as the case may be.
    (g) The period of probation may only be extended for a reason that relates to the purpose of probation. The period of extension should not be disproportionate to the legitimate purpose that the employer seeks to achieve.
    (h) An employer may only decide to dismiss an employee or extend the probationary period after the employer has invited the employee to make representations and has considered any representations made. A trade union representative or fellow employee may make the representations on behalf of the employee.
    (i) If the employer decides to dismiss the employee or to extend the probationary period, the employer should advise the employee of his or her rights to refer the matter to a council having jurisdiction, or to the Commission.
    (j) Any person making a decision about the fairness of a dismissal of an employee for poor work performance during or on expiry of the probationary period ought to accept reasons for dismissal that may be less compelling than would be the case in dismissals effected after the completion of the probationary period.
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  2. Thank given for this post:

    bones (06-Jul-15), Dave A (04-Jul-15), tec0 (06-Jul-15)

  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by xBrightDiamondX View Post
    Just getting advice here but clearly not from you
    Ok, let me put it another way: I agree with HR, companies get rid of unsuitable people during their probation period. They clearly do not want you there.They're not going to give you your job back so all you stand to gain is a couple of months salary, if you win....which I doubt you will. So why are you wasting your energy on this?

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    Silver Member bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianh View Post
    Ok, let me put it another way: I agree with HR, companies get rid of unsuitable people during their probation period. They clearly do not want you there.They're not going to give you your job back so all you stand to gain is a couple of months salary, if you win....which I doubt you will. So why are you wasting your energy on this?
    my brother had the same thing happen to him
    sh_t hit the fan he got the boot thing is he
    got bills to pay and finding a job isnt easy

    so if you can get a few months pay it is a few
    month he could use to find another job that is
    kind of obvious

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    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    my brother had the same thing happen to him
    sh_t hit the fan he got the boot thing is he
    got bills to pay and finding a job isnt easy

    so if you can get a few months pay it is a few
    month he could use to find another job that is
    kind of obvious
    It's not obvious, it's short sighted. You have to remember that the CCMA case remains a blot against your name forever. Each and every time you go for an interview you will be asked to explain what happened. Yes of course we all want money but at what cost?

  6. #15
    Diamond Member tec0's Avatar
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    Welcome to the real world or so people will claim. See our records that includes the fact that you where fired get accessed by labour companies, regardless if it is labour higher for labour broker. Based on that you may get burned. That said if you can proof it that company will have hell to pay as it it is not illegal to go to the CCMA to start with. Basically it is discrimination and they are very careful that you will never know what was accessed from your life.

    Lately as seen both in real word and on this forum they check for: your record both criminal and if you have history with the CCMA then they also test you for dyslexia and other so called problems. Once they are done you will be lucky to to get a job ever again. Despite the many laws that is suppose to protect us against such intimidation, discrimination and downright violation of privacy things happen behind closed doors and you simply don't get picked for an interview or you make it at the interview stage but it stops there. It is why this system exist and is used by many employers sadly.

    If you are really lucky or your skills are really impressive you may get employment again. There is always the chance that a employer doesn't care about your past. And they do exist. It is why there is a slow movement starting in unions and so on to stop people from checking your past and the only information available is your qualification level. This would help to stop this unseen and frankly disgusting practice. Yes the employer has the right to protect itself and i totally agree with that but in the same breath so do the employee.

    Sometimes good employers will give you an opportunity and i for one hope this will happen more and more as the job market is really tight.

    Sadly you are about to get a head on collision with a view demigods and they frown upon the very fact that you asked for help to begin with. i will not name them but you will figure it out as you continue. That said you will also get a lot of good advice from other members still fighting the good fight.

    Best of luck to you, i really do hope you make it big and learn form the processes so that you can help the next person facing your problems. Knowledge and first hand experience is a BIG help to many so please keep us up to date
    peace is a state of mind
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    Yep .... so the answer is - Keep you ass clean.

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    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Just as an employee has a right, so does the employer.

    As the employer, one has to take all the risk, both financially and other responsibilities with the employment of a person, SEIFSA/MIGFA/MIBFA/NUMSA/COSATU or what ever union is in your sector, and there is no doubt that at the end of the day, whilst the employee thinks that he is always short changed, this is not the case, the employer usually is the one holding all the expenses because the employer decided to employ a person.

    There is no doubt that the employer, who at the end of the day is taking the highest risk, decides with whom they want to take a chance with, and in today's current climate, wants to be picky and choosy - does he not have the right?

    Also, an employer, will probably look to see if any manufacturing process can be automated, even if at a higher cost in order to avoid having an employee and the responsibilities that come with it.
    Remember that there is also a customer involved, who quite frankly does not care about the labour issues, he just wants his product working and delivered on time, at the price quoted.

    There just is no meat left to cover the bonus, 13th check, sick leave, pension/provident fund/Sick fund,Bargaining council fees and other hidden expenses whcih are created by having an employee, such as tea/coffee, sugar milk, pilfering, shoddy workmanship, breaking of tools/equipment, etc
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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    You are so right Justloadit . The employer is the one taking the biggest risk, therefore must make the right decision when hiring people.

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    If it was up to me I wouldn't employ anybody. The most inefficient manufacturing device is a human!

  11. #20
    Diamond Member Citizen X's Avatar
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    There are fallacies here: Firstly in terms of the Basic Conditions Of Employment Act, an employee has the right to request a certificate of service, which does not disclose the reason for the termination of employment, secondly, if the CCMA declares that a dismissal was either substantively unfair or procedurally unfair or both, then the employee is completely vindicated and therefore, the fact of dismissal cannot be held against that employee.

    My two cents: Don’t give up. No matter what, there is an employer out there that will value you and treat you with dignity and respect.
    “Ubuntu is the essence of being humane" Desmond Tutu
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