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Thread: OLD or NEW South Africa

  1. #21
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you on this one. Then any citizen who is convicted of contravening the law should go to prison for life then.

    I still think that AA/BEE is van not be categorized the same as capital crime.
    You're missing my point. This is not about whether AA / B-BBEE and capital crime should be categorised together. It's about subjecting ANY legislation to the same scrutiny and analysis when its intended purpose has not been achieved instead of assuming that any failure must be inherent to the legislation itself and, therefore, that the legislation must be scrapped.

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  2. #22
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Please reference the local legislation that COMPELS all South African private enterprises to allocate a specific portion of ownership to particular race groups.
    With respect to the new amended codes, If you want to get business from corporates so that you can earn a living, one will have to follow the new amended codes, copied from "EconoBEE
    011 483 1190".
    The majority of companies will reach a maximum of 4 points if not fully black owned owned with full senior black managers.
    So business will get more and more difficult if you are not with in the new amended BEE codes. In fact most business who had high scores before the new codes will be very surprised to note that they will have dropped down by a number of points under the new amended codes.

    Code 100 -Ownership:Points available: 25
    –Awards points for black participants in the ownership of the enterprise.
    –Takes into account:
    –Voting Rights
    –Economic Interest
    –More points for:
    –Black women, ESOPS, broad-based schemes
    Is a priority element –drop one level if insufficient ownership

    Do you need Black Ownership?
    –Are your customers asking you if you have black ownership?
    –Do you supply the mining sector?
    –Will Black Ownership result in more business?
    –Do you need additional finance to grow your business?
    –Do you need additional management capabilities?
    –Do you need access to government business?

    How much Ownership?
    –10% reaches the subminimum on the priority element status
    –25+1 vote is the Amended Codes target
    –30% black female will assist your customers through the procurement element
    –51% black people will assist your customers through the procurement element
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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  3. #23
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    You're missing my point. This is not about whether AA / B-BBEE and capital crime should be categorised together. It's about subjecting ANY legislation to the same scrutiny and analysis when its intended purpose has not been achieved instead of assuming that any failure must be inherent to the legislation itself and, therefore, that the legislation must be scrapped.
    Then the law with respect to murder should not have been used as an example. We all know that murder will continue, it is simply a product of human nature, especially when greed and hate are emotions in humans.

    Maybe, because of the emotion involved with AA/BEE, it may mean that it will be here for eternity.
    It still does not detract that it it is favouring certain races of the local population from with in the country's population, as opposed to other countries who are favouring their own citizens against foreigners opening business with in those countries. There in to me lies the difference.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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  4. #24
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    With respect to the new amended codes, If you want to get business from corporates so that you can earn a living, one will have to follow the new amended codes
    Nope. Compliance with Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment is entirely voluntary. I have many clients that supply corporates even though they aren't compliant or have a low B-BBEE score.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

  5. #25
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    We all know that murder will continue, it is simply a product of human nature, especially when greed and hate are emotions in humans.
    So if discrimination is also an inevitable product of human nature, does that mean AA can never be abolished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    It still does not detract that it it is favouring certain races of the local population from with in the country's population, as opposed to other countries who are favouring their own citizens against foreigners opening business with in those countries. There in to me lies the difference.
    Nope. Many of the countries that I referenced earlier employ affirmative action policies that favour certain demographic groups within their own populations, instead of simply favouring their own populations over foreigners.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

  6. #26
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    So if discrimination is also an inevitable product of human nature, does that mean AA can never be abolished?
    That's what my conclusion was with the following statement "Maybe, because of the emotion involved with AA/BEE, it may mean that it will be here for eternity."
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    I have many clients that supply corporates even though they aren't compliant or have a low B-BBEE score.
    Can you show some evidence of this.
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  7. #27
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Nope. Compliance with Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment is entirely voluntary. I have many clients that supply corporates even though they aren't compliant or have a low B-BBEE score.
    If you wish to deal with corporates, it may be more difficult to be a supplier with out having a score, and provided you are less than the lower turn over threshold - depending on your industry, unless you are a strategic component supplier that you can continue unabated. If you are over the T/O threshold, law states that you must abide by the BEE codes.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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  8. #28
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    If you are over the T/O threshold, law states that you must abide by the BEE codes.
    Would you mind referencing the legal provision stating that companies over a certain turnover MUST comply with B-BBEE?

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

  9. #29
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Here goes, it is intertwined with in all the paragraphs, copied from Profin HR Practitioners

    It is a bit of a long read, but is relevant to all who have a business in RSA.
    Reading carefully, you will note that even a family owned business, does not have the right to even employ a Son/Daughter directly into to management position, they will have to apply for the job, using the criteria listed here below. Doing this will trigger the unfair discrimination. So this means that there is no guaranteed position for your family members in your family business. What is concerning is that selection is not even done on qualifications, but rather on the premise that the BEE applicant may be able to do the job.

    The information here is not in it's entirety, but is sections of the act to highlight the request made by Grieg.

    The main Act requires employers to -

    promote the constitutional right of equality and the exercise of true democracy;
    eliminate unfair discrimination in employment;
    ensure the implementation of employment equity to redress the effects of discrimination;
    achieve a diverse workforce broadly representative of our people;
    promote economic development and efficiency in the workforce; and
    give effect to the obligations of the Republic as a member of the International Labour Organisation.

    THE EMPLOYMENT EQUITY AMENDMENT ACT
    Amends the Employment Equity Act, 1998, as follows:

    to substitute or amend certain definitions;

    to further regulate the prohibition of unfair discrimination against employees;
    to make further provision regarding the evidential burden of proof in allegations of unfair discrimination;
    to further regulate the preparation and implementation of employment equity plans and the submission of reports by designated employers to the Director-General;
    to further regulate undertakings by designated employers to comply with requests by labour inspectors;
    to further regulate the issuing of compliance orders;
    to provide afresh for the assessment of compliance by designated employers with employment equity and the failure of those employers to comply with requests and recommendations made by the Director-General;

    The following amendments have been made to the principal Act
    Section 1: Definitions
    ‘Black People’ is a generic term which means Africans, Coloureds and Indians (Chinese considered to be African);

    ‘Designated Employer’ means

    an employer who employs 50 or more employees;
    an employer who employs fewer than 50 employees, but has a total annual turnover that is equal to or above the applicable annual turnover of a small business in terms of Schedule 4 to this Act;
    an employer bound by a collective agreement in terms of section 23 or 31 of the Labour Relations Act.

    ’Designated Groups’ means black people, women and people with disabilities who-

    a. are citizens of the Republic of South Africa by birth or descent; or
    b. became citizens of the Republic of South Africa by naturalization-
    i. Before 27 April 1994; or
    ii. After 26 April 1994 and who have been entitled to acquire citizenship by naturalization prior to that date but who were precluded by apartheid policies;

    Employment Policy or practice’ includes, but is not limited to–
    Recruitment procedures, advertising and selection criteria;
    Appointments and the appointment process;
    Job classification and grading
    Remuneration, employment benefits and terms and conditions of employment;
    Job assignments;
    The working environment and facilities;
    Training and development;
    Performance evaluation systems;
    Promotion;
    Transfer;
    Demotion;
    Disciplinary measures other than dismissal;
    Dismissal;
    ‘Reasonable Accommodation’ means any modification or adjustment to a job or to the working environment that will enable a person from a designated group to have access to or participate or advance in employment;

    When determining whether a person is suitably qualified for a job, an employer must –

    e. Revue all the factors listed above; and
    f. Determine whether that person has the ability to do the job in terms of any one of, or any combination of those factors.
    In making a determination in terms of e & f above, an employer may not unfairly discriminate against a person solely on the grounds of that person’s lack of relevant experience.

    Purpose of the Act


    The purpose of this Act is to achieve equity in the workplace by –

    (a) promoting equal opportunity and fair treatment in employment through the elimination of unfair discrimination; and
    (b) implementing affirmative action measures to redress the disadvantages in employment experienced by designated groups, in order to ensure their equitable representation in all occupational levels in the workforce.”

    Elimination of Unfair Discrimination

    Every employer must take steps to promote equal opportunity in the workplace by eliminating unfair discrimination in any employment policy or practice.

    Prohibition of Unfair Discrimination
    No person may unfairly discriminate, directly or indirectly, against an employee, in any employment policy or practice, on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, family responsibility, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, HIV status, conscience, belief, political opinion, culture, language, birth or on any other arbitrary ground.”; and

    (2) It is not unfair discrimination to –
    *
    (a) Take affirmative action measures consistent with the purpose of this Act; or
    (b) Distinguish, exclude or prefer any person on the basis of an inherent requirement of a job.

    A difference in terms and conditions of employment between employees of the same employer performing the same or substantially the same work or work of equal value that is directly or indirectly based on any one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (1), is unfair discrimination.

    Burden of Proof
    If unfair discrimination is alleged on a ground listed in section 6(1), the employer against whom the allegation is made must prove, on a balance of probabilities, that such discrimination –

    (a) did not take place as alleged; or
    (b) is rational and not unfair, or is otherwise justifiable.

    If unfair discrimination is alleged on an arbitrary ground, the complainant must prove, on a balance of probabilities, that –

    (a) the conduct complained of is not rational;
    (b) the conduct complained of amounts to discrimination; and
    (c) the discrimination is unfair.”

    Affirmative Action Measures
    (1) Affirmative action measures are measures designed to ensure that suitably qualified people from designated groups have equal employment opportunities and are equitably represented in all occupational levels in the workforce of a designated employer; and

    (2) Affirmative action measures implemented by a designated employer must include –
    (a) Measures to identify and eliminate employment barriers, including unfair discrimination, which adversely affect people from designated groups;
    (b) Measures designed to further diversity in the workplace based on equal dignity and respect of all people;
    (c) Making reasonable accommodation for people from designated groups in order to ensure that they enjoy equal opportunities and are equitably represented in the workforce of a designated employer;

    Analysis
    (1) A designated employer must collect information and conduct an analysis, as prescribed, of its employment policies, practices, procedures and the working environment, in order to identify employment barriers, which adversely affect people from designated groups.
    (2) An analysis conducted in terms of subsection (1) must include a profile, as prescribed, of the designated employer’s workforce within each occupational level in order to determine the degree of underrepresentation of people from designated groups in various occupational levels in that employer’s workforce.

    Employment Equity Act Plan
    (1) A designated employer must prepare and implement an employment equity plan, which will achieve reasonable progress towards employment equity in that employer’s workforce.
    (2) An employment equity plan prepared in terms of subsection (1) must state –
    (a) the objectives to be achieved for each year of the plan;
    (b) the affirmative action measures to be implemented as required by section 15 (2);
    (c) where under representation of people from designated groups has been identified by the analysis, the numerical goals to achieve the equitable representation of suitably qualified people from designated groups within each occupational level in the workforce, the timetable within which this is to be achieved, and the strategies intended to achieve those goals;” and
    (d) the timetable for each year of the plan for the achievement of goals and objectives other than numerical goals;
    (e) the duration of the plan, which may not be shorter than one year or longer than five years;
    (f) the procedures that will be used to monitor and evaluate the implementation of the plan and whether reasonable progress is being made towards implementing employment equity;

    (3) For purposes of this Act, a person may be suitably qualified for a job as a result of any one of, or any combination of that person’s –
    (a) formal qualifications;
    (b) prior learning;
    (c) relevant experience; or
    (d) capacity to acquire, within a reasonable time, the ability to do the job.

    (5) In making a determination, an employer may not unfairly discriminate against a person solely on the grounds of that person’s lack of relevant experience.

    Turnover threshold Applicable to Designated Employers

    Sector or sub-sectors in accordance with the Total Annual Turnover
    Standard Industrial Classification
    Agriculture R6.00 m
    Mining & Quarrying R22.50 m
    Manufacturing R30.00 m
    Electricity, Gas & Water R30.00 m
    Construction R15.00 m
    Retail & Motor Trade & Repair Services R45.00 m
    Wholesale Trade, Commercial Agents & Allied Services R75.00 m
    Catering, Accommodation & other Trade R15.00 m
    Transport, Storage & Communications R30.00 m
    Finance & Business Services R30.00 m
    Community, Special & Personal Services R15.00 m
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

  10. #30
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    You're confusing Employment Equity and Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment. B-BBEE has nothing to do with the EE turnover thresholds. B-BBEE compliance is entirely voluntary, regardless of turnover.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

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