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Thread: OLD or NEW South Africa

  1. #11
    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanChris View Post
    Is it still applicable for personnel agencies and companies, to advertise for "AA".........
    I think if you change the question around a little it does make interesting discussion. Given that AA was legally implimented to redress the balance, at what point must the line be drawn and the policy must fall away? It can't go on indefinately because if it's working the balance will at some point have been redressed and if it's not working it needs to be stopped and a new method found. Either way surely there's got to be a time limit.
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    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyD View Post
    Given that AA was legally implimented to redress the balance, at what point must the line be drawn and the policy must fall away? It can't go on indefinately because if it's working the balance will at some point have been redressed and if it's not working it needs to be stopped and a new method found. Either way surely there's got to be a time limit.
    Should the same logic apply to other laws and policies? At a certain point, should the prohibition of violent crime or consumer exploitation - for example - be withdrawn and/or substituted? If not, why not?

    (I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but thoughtful responses are welcome)

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    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Should the same logic apply to other laws and policies? At a certain point, should the prohibition of violent crime or consumer exploitation - for example - be withdrawn and/or substituted? If not, why not?

    (I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but thoughtful responses are welcome)
    You can not place crime in the same plane as AA/BEE.
    BEE is a legalized form of "Apartheid/Racism", at what point is the world going to continue to tolerate this?
    It is the same as placing a placard on a bench in the park - "Only non whites allowed to sit here, we are trying to redress the past"
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    You can not place crime in the same plane as AA/BEE.
    I respectfully disagree. The purpose of any legislation is to shape social behaviour. We don't want people to commit crimes, so we implement laws that prohibit and penalise crime. Similarly, we don't want people to discriminate against others on the basis of race or perpetuate historical prejudices, so we implement laws that prohibit and penalise those behaviours.

    The behaviours may differ, but the purpose of the legislation is identical.

    Any argument for the failure of AA/B-BBEE on the basis that those policies and laws still exist, can be extended to any other legislation or law that still exists. Ergo, when will we abolish the laws prohibiting violent crime? The answer is obvious: when people stop committing violent crime. Until that day arrives, less obvious questions arise:

    Are our laws prohibiting violent crime effective? (i.e. the problem lies with the legislation)
    Is the implementation of our laws effective? (i.e. the problem lies with our legal system)
    Is violent crime inevitable and unavoidable? (i.e. the problem lies with human nature)

    All of these questions can (and should) be directed to the AA and B-BBEE legislation as well.

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    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    BEE is a legalized form of "Apartheid/Racism", at what point is the world going to continue to tolerate this?
    Considering that affirmative action is used (to varying degrees) by China, India, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, Canada, and the United States, I suspect that "the world" is not too concerned about our own affirmative action.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

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    I would like to repeat what I answered Chris on the other thread to a similar question. BEE is a fact of life. If SA was not forced to hire across the board or select across the board for rugby teams etc we would not have done it out of our own. One major little fact that has come about is that over the last 20 years while some people have sat back, a LOT of black people have gone out there and studied and got the degree or the diploma or the qualification and are now very marketable. SO many companies when asking us to find candidates for a job want a black person especially between the ages of 20-30 because they know this. SO many companies / people (including myself) stay clear of the white boy in that same age bracket. Now before Chris jumps down my throat again - it is not all the white boys - My son is 22 and is studying and does also not fall into that bracket. But 9 out of 10 white boys think the world owes them something, and Im not sure if this perhaps comes from their fathers. I repeat I am not generalising - I am purely stating from my experience dealing with companies and candidates.
    A further little titbit - when we call them in to a interview, who do you think does either not pitch up, or is late, has their cell phone off when you try to contact them etc etc etc ........ On the other side of the coin we have some black young guys who will walk 10km to an interview. I personally drove 15 Km a while back to go and find a guy, because in my mind he had the balls, he wanted the job and was prepared to put himself out to get the job. He got himself lost and was very stressed because he was going to be late to one of our clients. I went and found him, took him to the client - he got the job.

    Therefore what I am also trying to say is that a lot of the time when companies advertise AA or EE for example, its not because they have to, its because they want to !

  7. Thank given for this post:

    Greig Whitton (20-Jan-15), IanF (20-Jan-15)

  8. #17
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Considering that affirmative action is used (to varying degrees) by China, India, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, Canada, and the United States, I suspect that "the world" is not too concerned about our own affirmative action.
    I accept what you are saying however in those countries they do not state that you must only hire locals. Yes in other countries they require the nationals to own a certain percentage, however the national is not stated to be from a specific race group as is the case here. There are differences. In Portugal, as a foreigner that opens a business must have a minimum 40% of the business owned by a local person, irrespective of their race, and many many Portuguese citizens were originally from Africa. The same goes for other European countries. I think that there is a major difference to what we are experiencing here.

    Lets take Mozambique and Angola, they hire anyone who is capable of doing the job, they also went through a dramatic change in the middle 70s.

    It is very easy to comment this way when you are safeguarded by employment, whether it be as an employee or as a business owner with a secure form of income, but if you happen to be retrenched or unemployed for what ever reason, believe me, it is not easy to get employment again. I have seen this with family members, by the way who do not feel the world owes them! who were retrenched. I have other family members who have completed tertiary studies, and where the so called PDI learners were their classmates have already been employed because of the BEE policies.

    Do not tell me a handfull of whites are going to take all the jobs away from the other 50million RSA citizens. In my book this is similar to apartheid, no mater how much honey you want to stick on it.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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  9. #18
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    I respectfully disagree. The purpose of any legislation is to shape social behaviour. We don't want people to commit crimes, so we implement laws that prohibit and penalise crime. Similarly, we don't want people to discriminate against others on the basis of race or perpetuate historical prejudices, so we implement laws that prohibit and penalise those behaviours.

    The behaviours may differ, but the purpose of the legislation is identical.

    Any argument for the failure of AA/B-BBEE on the basis that those policies and laws still exist, can be extended to any other legislation or law that still exists. Ergo, when will we abolish the laws prohibiting violent crime? The answer is obvious: when people stop committing violent crime. Until that day arrives, less obvious questions arise:

    Are our laws prohibiting violent crime effective? (i.e. the problem lies with the legislation)
    Is the implementation of our laws effective? (i.e. the problem lies with our legal system)
    Is violent crime inevitable and unavoidable? (i.e. the problem lies with human nature)

    All of these questions can (and should) be directed to the AA and B-BBEE legislation as well.
    I respectfully disagree with you on this one. Then any citizen who is convicted of contravening the law should go to prison for life then.

    I still think that AA/BEE is van not be categorized the same as capital crime.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar pumping, Solar Geyser & Solar Security lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

  10. #19
    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Considering that affirmative action is used (to varying degrees) by China, India, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, Canada, and the United States, I suspect that "the world" is not too concerned about our own affirmative action.
    I think the question might be not how long it would be tolerable to the world or other countries, rather how long it would be tolerable or justifiable under our constitution.
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  11. #20
    Silver Member Greig Whitton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    I accept what you are saying however in those countries they do not state that you must only hire locals. Yes in other countries they require the nationals to own a certain percentage, however the national is not stated to be from a specific race group as is the case here.
    Please reference the local legislation that COMPELS all South African private enterprises to allocate a specific portion of ownership to particular race groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justloadit View Post
    In Portugal, as a foreigner that opens a business must have a minimum 40% of the business owned by a local person, irrespective of their race, and many many Portuguese citizens were originally from Africa. The same goes for other European countries. I think that there is a major difference to what we are experiencing here.
    The application of affirmative action around the world is a lot more complex than how you are presenting it and is not limited to race or ethnicity. Bottom line: many countries, South Africa included, implement affirmative action policies that favour some demographic groups over others because there are social imbalances.

    Founder of Growth Surge - Helping entrepreneurs create more wealth and enjoy more freedom.

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