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Thread: The Electrical Certificate of Compliance explained

  1. #151
    Platinum Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Hi All

    Following on the question raised by jvdh regarding the panel for controlling 2 pumps where the panel is considered part of the "machine" being the 2 pumps, the question arises:

    Does the control panel, housing circuit breakers, timer and a transformer for a domestic swimming pool also form part of the "machine" being the pool pump, or is it part of the installation ?

    Derlyn

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    Thanks GCE for the reply..

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    Hi Derlyn
    The "panel" for a pool motor is actually a distribution board and is supplied by 220 volts, this then does not make the DB part of the "machine", so it must appear on the COC of the house being tested.
    Hoping that this helps you.
    Thanking you for the post.

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    Hi Derlyn

    I had a conversation with an AIA over swim pool.
    He felt that the standard type swim pool "DB"would not pass the sans test as a DB and that he prefers to call it a Motor control centre (MCC) .
    If you install a weatherproof isolator and from the isolator feed the MCC you can regard the pool as a fixed apppliance .
    The fixed appliance would still need to be electrically safe to sign the COC

    The minute you take another light circuit or plug circuit from the MCC then it would become a DB

    I disagree with Mellet - A "Pool DB "need not automatically be a DB but could be a MCC

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    Quote Originally Posted by GCE View Post
    Hi Derlyn

    I had a conversation with an AIA over swim pool.
    He felt that the standard type swim pool "DB"would not pass the sans test as a DB and that he prefers to call it a Motor control centre (MCC) .
    If you install a weatherproof isolator and from the isolator feed the MCC you can regard the pool as a fixed apppliance .
    The fixed appliance would still need to be electrically safe to sign the COC

    The minute you take another light circuit or plug circuit from the MCC then it would become a DB

    I disagree with Mellet - A "Pool DB "need not automatically be a DB but could be a MCC
    A pool DB is a pool DB ...sold as a pool DB ...generally made up of a main switch...plug circuit feeding a plug socket (standard as per reg 164) which feeds what ever is plugged into it ...be it a pump motor...lawnmower (not suppose...however it is a reality)...etc...a light circuit sometimes feeding a transformer for a light in the pool or just general lights...very seldom supplied with an earth leakage unit (you would be required to connect it to the e/l unit in the in the DB it is fed from because of the standard socket outlet)

    However if you mounted a main switch/isolator ...motor control gear etc in a weather proof enclosure...mounted at the correct height (another issue with pool DB's)...feeding only a pump motor which has a weather proof isolator mounted within arms reach (not via a standard 16 amp socket outlet)...then we could start changing the name...as soon as you fit a light switch or standard socket ...you need to call a spade a spade.

    Building water treatment and waste water plants is a different ball game to domestic pool pumps...An MCC would be made up of a pump control section which is dedicated to power and control for the level control...valves...pumps...pumps etc and in some cases if general lighting and power is required...a separate compartment for a "DB" which would have the main switch...earth leakage and circuit breakers...which could be completely separate from the MCC.

    Pool DB's are another rats nest...the kind of issues i find is the DB is mounted to low...literally on the floor...too close to the pool...cables too small (many i have seen are fed via a 1.5 mm cable)...feeding gate motors...garden lighting...gazebos you name it.

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    Greetings All

    If a extractor fan (kitchen) is on an earth leakage would you still require an isolator?

  7. #157
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    Because an extraction fan is a motor , a motor has to have an isolator within a certain distance and 6.16.5.1.4 is relevant
    To me the isolating in a DB does not allow for the total removal of the appliance as stipulated in the same reg 6.16.1.4 and it actually contradicts itself.
    Using the ELU as the isolator would definitely not allow total removal unless that ELU was dedicated to the extractor only

    6.16.5.1.4 Each motor shall be supplied by a manually operated
    disconnector or any other manually operated disconnecting arrangement
    such as a withdrawable circuit-breaker, a removable link, a fuse or by the
    removal of a plug from a socket-outlet, which provides at least the same
    isolating distance, for the sake of safety, as a disconnector that is
    a) readily accessible and mounted on or next to the motor, or
    b) visible from the motor, or
    c) lockable in the open position, or
    d) housed in a lockable enclosure other than a distribution board
    .

    6.16.1.4 The disconnecting device shall be positioned
    a) within 1,5 m from the appliance, or
    b) in a distribution board (if the switch-disconnector is capable of being
    locked in the open position).
    Even where a disconnecting device is on the appliance, a separate
    disconnecting device shall be provided in the fixed installation to allow for the
    total removal of the appliance

  8. Thanks given for this post:

    SeanM (02-Sep-19)

  9. #158
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    Evening GCE

    Thank you as always for the informative response.

    I was asking as in the regulations it says if a luminaire has a fan (motor) then an isolator must be fitted or it must be placed on an earth leakage, I am trying to understand the difference between a fan/motor on a luminaire and an extractor fan.

    I did a COC and the extractor fan (one with a chimney and a double storey so no ceiling) in the kitchen has no isolator and for me to fit one now would involve chasing not ideal and I want it to be first of all compliant and second of all neat.

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    Hi Sean
    There is no neat way only the right way .

    I feel for you having to explain and it annoys me every time I have to explain and tell the owners ,"that I did not do it or make the rules , I just follow them "

  11. #160
    Platinum Member Derlyn's Avatar
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    Hi Sean

    Does that extractor fan presently not get it's supply through a plug socket outlet ?

    If so, the socket outlet, if within 1,5 meters of the appliance, serves as the isolator.

    Derlyn

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