Metro fining cars at a Mall

[Dave S]

I suppose you would then happily pay the fine issued in the following scenario:

You invite some friends, and their friends over for a braai. The meat sizzles and the booz flows. You all decide to have a skinny dip. What a great and relaxed party. You didn't lock the gate and the next moments the pool is surrounded by cops.

Cop: "Hey you all, get out of the pool, who's the owner here ?"
Dave S: "I am Sir, what's the problem here?"
Cop hands over ticket for R 5000 to Dave S for "indecent exposure in public" of 10 people.
Dave S: "But Sir, this is my house, look at those walls, nobody can see us".
Cop: "Do you know everyone here personally" ?
Dave S: "Yes, most of them, but some I just met tonight."
Cop: " Aaaah, PUBLIC PLACE, so your house is open for public use."

Cop: "And this car over here, the tyres are very smooth, here's another ticket for you. "
Dave S: "But Sir, I'm building that car up from scratch, it's standing on bricks ffs ! ".
Cop: "It is safe to assume it was driven or towed here and either of these scenarios would be breaking the law IRO road-worthiness. Goodbye Mr. S Dave".

Dave S: "??< I don't know what Dave's last response was. What was it ? >??"

Your scenario is totally out of the context of the debate. Firstly, my private residence is, well, private, and cops would need a court order to enter, unless they have received a complaint from neighbours regarding the nudity, noise, etc. In which case they can only investigate the complaint. A car parked at a shopping mall, is very different to a car standing on bricks at my residence (incidentally, the car that is standing there now, was transported on a trailer).

Dave S' response would be, "Please, Mr. Cops, can I see all of your valid Identifications and badge numbers, as well as your court order, please furnish me with the details of the authorising commander of your unit. Thank you, see you in court..."

[Mark Atkinson]

Yeah I'm really not sure how skywalker's argument is valid. The scenario is completely different to that of a shopping mall.

Anyway, I'd rather have the cops walking around a shopping centre parking lot fining for license discs and tyres than have them set up a roadblock at the entrance/exit to a mall, which would probably be well within their rights, but would cause chaos of note.

Simple really: If you're driving a car, make sure it's licensed and roadworthy. Then there'll be no problems regardless of where you are?

[Dave S]

Simple really: If you're driving a car, make sure it's licensed and roadworthy. Then there'll be no problems regardless of where you are?

That's the point, if your vehicle is always maintained legally, you would not have to worry about "shopping mall menaces" and it would become a none-issue. However, if I were to get a fine at a shopping mall, I would still wait for a summons and have my day in court, I certainly wouldn't just pay the fine at any rate.

[wynn]

Dave S: "??< I don't know what Dave's last response was. What was it ? >??"

"I wave my naked derrier in your direction!"

[Dave S]

"I wave my naked derrier in your direction!"

And apologise for the permanent visual scarring that will haunt you for the remainder of your life...

[SkyWalker42]

Your scenario is totally out of the context of the debate. Firstly, my private residence is, well, private, and cops would need a court order to enter, unless they have received a complaint from neighbours regarding the nudity, noise, etc. In which case they can only investigate the complaint. A car parked at a shopping mall, is very different to a car standing on bricks at my residence (incidentally, the car that is standing there now, was transported on a trailer).

Dave S' response would be, "Please, Mr. Cops, can I see all of your valid Identifications and badge numbers, as well as your court order, please furnish me with the details of the authorising commander of your unit. Thank you, see you in court..."

Ok, the (scenario) scenery at the mall looks slightly different, but from a LEGAL VIEWPOINT they are identical. There are no shades of grey of private property. The mall is private property, full stop. A car parked at a shopping mall is on private property. This is a fact and a court deal only in facts, not opinions.
The cop has no business writing traffic tickets on private property, in fact the cop should not even be on privately property while on duty. His workplace is in the public space only, where he must do his job as dictated by the traffic rules and he doesn't get to make makeup his own law as he goes along, which is exactly what they did in this case.

Funny I was right about the car, I just made it up.
Regarding the pool party, I didn't say anything about noise.
So, tell us about that pool party...

[Dave S]

Like I said, the mall may be private property, but the 'mets' could have got permission from the management to be there, which makes it legal for them to be there. Would be interesting to know for sure what the extent of the "private property clause" would be as regards the parking lot?

Oh, you know, just a quiet party...

[SkyWalker42]

Yeah I'm really not sure how skywalker's argument is valid. The scenario is completely different to that of a shopping mall.

See above and point out where my argument is invalid or illegal.

Anyway, I'd rather have the cops walking around a shopping centre parking lot fining for license discs and tyres than have them set up a roadblock at the entrance/exit to a mall, which would probably be well within their rights, but would cause chaos of note.

I'd rather have them NOT walking around on private property writing tickets, because it is illegal.
That is definitely within their right if the road block is "on the public side".

Simple really: If you're driving a car, make sure it's licensed and roadworthy. Then there'll be no problems regardless of where you are?

Agreed is really simple: Make sure your car licensed and roadworthy. Then there'll be no problems ON THE PUBLIC ROADS, and there will be no problem on private property if the metro cops stops breaking the law.



Dave and Mark, I don't mind your opinion about what the cops can and cannot do to you, but I do have a problem when you say that they can infringe on my (and everyone else's) rights too.

[Dave S]

@skywalker42 were you, by any chance, one of the unfortunate ones that were ticketed in this manner? Sorry to ask, it just seems that you are pressing the point just a little too aggressively.

Understanding that the ticketing at shopping malls may/may not be legal, we still don't know for sure, would it not be infringing on others rights to safety if one of the cars with smooth tyres were to leave the shopping mall and risk killing someone in an accident due to a blown-out tyre or aqua-planing?

We all know that operating an un-roadworthy vehicle is dangerous and infringes on everyone's rights, if one is ticketted for such offence, whether it be at the mall or in a roadblock is of no consequence, if the vehicle is operated in this condition then it stands to reason, the ticket is legal.

[AndyD]

Not to sound harsh, but there's not really anything to worry about if you just have a valid license disc and keep your tyres roadworthy?

I don't really buy into the arguement that if you obey the law you have nothing to worry about even if the police are pushing their jurisdiction. Problem is this is how mission-creep occurs, I prefer to have the police and authorities on a very tight leash and a very clear line that they don't cross. The problem with turning a blind eye in one area is that it's only a short step for legislating it across the board. Take the Americans and their patriot act, one terrorist act on their home soil leads to a massive loss of rights for all citizens. The authorities there have extraordinary power as long as they can make some vague link with terrorism and it's amazing how all-encompassing that one word has become in the last few years.

A slight infringement here and there sets precidents and leads to larger and not necessarily wanted changes being implimented over time.