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Thread: BBBEE wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSS100 View Post
    Read all the discriminating and degrading posts made by all the white people about transformation and black people and BBBEE which is needed to adddress the cruel injustice of the past in this country before you tell me of making racism remarks

    Start from beginning of the posts then you shall see MR Clever
    Living in the past is not going to ensure a bright future for your or my children. Taking hands and working together to build a country where ALL South Africans can benefit is what we need. We need a shared patriosim and a vision of a country where everyone is equal and treated fairly.
    I sadly do acknowlege that there are racists amongst us, but I also realise that there are black and white racists, that is why I immediately get my back up when race is mentioned (all races). Every time that we fall into that negative trap of pointing fingers, we destroy the little bit of goodwill that still bind us together.
    Most white people voted for change because we saw that apartheid was wrong. Not all of us benefitted from apartheid as is generally believed. I was orphaned at 10 and the boarding school was my home until I left school. Yes, I was privileged to attend a good school, but I could not afford to go to university. I studied part time and worked hard to make a living. I was awarded an MBA at age 50 and I am still studying. I regard myself as fairly succesful, so why should I be ashamed of who I am?
    I can understand that people are hurt because of injustices and many things that have gone wrong. Some show their anger in violent demonstrations such as the burning of trucks on the N3 this weekend. There are however, those who rise above their circumstances to become leaders and pillars of hope in their communities and in their country. Let us be builders rather than breakers.
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    "The bill will lead to even more resources being made available to relatively less competent entrepreneurs -- black, coloured, Indian and white -- those entrepreneurs who would not make the grade without government assistance."

    This meant fewer consumer goods would be available to all South Africans. The cost of the project would fall on ordinary consumers, who would have to pay more for basic goods.

    Le Roux said it was important to remember it was not just "less competent" black entrepreneurs who benefit from artificial investment, but also whites.

    "White entrepreneurs who would not have made it in the market, but who somehow managed to get a black, coloured or Indian BEE partner, are being kept in business at the expense of consumers," he said.
    Just to put everything in perspective; this is where the thread has started. Although there are many whites who resist change due to their fears or insecurities, I have to agree with Wynn's statement which also reflects my view of BBBEE. I see it as a licence for corruption and a free ticket for the politically connected.

    I fully support transformation and in our business we are training (black) youngsters with skills to enable them to negotiate a better wage and a better living. They are now able to apply elsewhere, should they not be happy with their pay or working conditions.There are those who are "too old to learn" or some other excuse, but at least they have the option to decide for themselves.

    We have started the business with a 51% black partner, but he was a gentleman and although a business school graduate, he decided that he was not the right person for the job. What is the use of "empowering" one man if he does not have the technical skills and aptitude to carry on with the business after the founders retire or leave? Is it not better to transfer the skills to more capable youngsters who are willing to learn and who have the the right attitude and hunger for the business? That is what I call empowererment and real freedom. The right to choose where you want to work and to be able to negotiate is real freedom. Not the kind of freedom that is sold by politicians. I have yet to meet any politician that can be trusted.
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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    Yes, transformation should not be about few politically connected or "one-man" as a BBEEE partner, it is way more than that

    Mama Winnie did not suffer for " few" to benefit from the freedom but ALL "our people" as she always referred to the people

    Let us honour her and the sacrifices she made .. the good cause

    Rest In Peam Mama Winnie

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    Diamond Member Blurock's Avatar
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    Transformation

    What do we understand under transformation? I think 90% of South Africans have no clue what the word means and our government certainly have no clue on how to implement it.

    The recent debacle of forced racist quotas in sports and in particular in school sports has again opened a can of worms which is driving people into racist camps. This leads to emotional outbursts without thinking rationally, such as that Sija Kolisi, our springbok captain is a sell-out and has to be neclaced! Imagine.

    The government should not worry about the racial make-up of our national sides, but rather focus on giving as many children as possible the opportunity to play sport. Too many children are playing their sports in township streets or an open veld with not a blade of grass. The ANC has had 25 years to start building facilities where school children can play, train and practice their sport. Why have they done nothing for our children?! A skill in sport is not acquired at 18 or 20, after you have left school, but at junior level. It takes 10 years to become a master or expert at what you do. That is why Bafana Bafana is such a hopelessly dismal team. You cannot expect to kick a ball around on a barren, grassless field and then become a world class player.
    Look at our black sports stars. All of them went to decent schools with decent sports facilities. Yes the Makaya Ntini's, Kolisi's and others have been discovered in rural areas, but they were given an opportunity which they took and built on to become sports heroes. Had these same guys be left in the rural area and only entered their teams as quota players, they would not have done so well. On the contrary, there would always be the stigma of "quota player", which would also have a psychological impact making them feel inferior to their peers.

    Imagine what impact it may have on an unsecure youngster to be included in the school team as a quota player. I am so glad that this stupid announcement was scrapped for school children. Rather build facilities where everyone can have an equal opportunity to excell and be the best that they can be. That is true transformation!
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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    https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/ar...mmission-2019-

    The BBBEE Commission reported on Thursday that no significant changes happened in the levels of transformation during 2018, with black ownership reflecting a decline to 25.2% last year, from 27% in 2017, and management control still sitting at 38% for black persons. According to them this “worrying trend of noncompliance is . . . undermining the objectives of the BBBEE Act.” Black women ownership stood at only 10.1%.
    The Commission said in a statement that by including BBBEE as an audit requirement and the enforcement action of the commission, reporting and the extent of BBBEE implementation was expected to improve.

    Have we become an authoritarian state where government decides for you who can do business and who not? Whatever happened to free trade?
    By enforcing quotas in our businesses, government is harming business to such an extent that businesses are closing and capital is flowing out of the country. This is obviously not good for job creation. Quotas have the disadvantage that it will exclude competent people while including less competent people just for the sake of ticking the boxes. Expecting 50% of employees to be female is wrong, as females may not be interested in that particular job. The converse applies where males may not choose a particular job. To fill the quotas, less interested or qualified people gets appointed.

    Instead of BEE which is not working, encourage employers to train and upskill employees so that they are able negotiate sustainable employment and to sell their skills to the highest bidder. Skilled people become entrepreneurs who create employment and wealth. They will become the managers and leaders of the future. We need leaders with skills, not selected BEE political cronies who are there only for the money.

    We have to grow our economy to create employment, but that can only happen in a free trading environment where businesses are given the flexibility to decide what is good for their future. It is interesting to note that in the USA where people hire and fire (not my favourite), the unemployment rate is 3%. In SA where government and unions force employers to keep underperforming staff, the unemployment rate is 26!
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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    Let's face it, BEE is not going to save our economy and will not uplift Black people as dreamed up by the ANC. BEE is ruining our economy as new investors are looking for opportunities in countries with less restrictions on their money and their business. It is clearly racial discrimination and is polarizing society to the extent that businesses are closing or jobs are being cut.

    I can understand the frustration of workers who get paid the minimum, while the top dogs (Black and White) walk away with the loot. How can we justify a CEO of a listed company earning R60 million p.a. and the workers get R6000 pm? (R72k p.a.= 0.12% of R60 mil) Office workers may get R20 - R30k or up to R360k p.a. That is only 0.6% of the CEO's package. This happens in state owned entities as well aka Eskom, Transnet etc. Just look at the inflated packages of snr municipal managers vs workers. Our wage gap is the legacy of English and British colonialism where colonies have been exploited to the maximum. This is unsustainable and leads to discontent and mistrust and may well end in anarchy.

    What may work is the Scandinavian socialist/capitalist economic model of social democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
    In 2019, all five of the Nordic countries ranked in the top 10 on the World Happiness Report. Clearly, they must be doing something right?

    Consider a cap on the wage gap so that the R60 mil of the CEO is also shared by the workforce who are mostly living on the breadline. Should these people earn a better wage, it will increase their buying power and will be a great stimulus to the economy.
    Economics teaches us that wealth is created by the flow of money. Money lying idle in the bank is not generating wealth or prosperity, only interest to the holder. This is also seen in China (a communist country) where workers started earning more due to an increase in demand from globalization. Poor workers from rural areas could for the first time buy TV's, fridges and other consumer goods that improved their lives. Today there are many Chinese millionaires benefiting from their communist/capitalist economy, because of increased trade.

    Does our govt have the courage to admit that BEE is wrong and is not creating prosperity? Will they consider another economic model?
    When will they scrap tribalism and give rural families ownership of their land and their homes. This will give them the opportunity to get loans to educate their children, get access to funding for small business or other entrepreneurial activities. What a boost that would be to our economy.
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurock View Post
    Let's face it, BEE is not going to save our economy and will not uplift Black people as dreamed up by the ANC. BEE is ruining our economy as new investors are looking for opportunities in countries with less restrictions on their money and their business. It is clearly racial discrimination and is polarizing society to the extent that businesses are closing or jobs are being cut.

    I can understand the frustration of workers who get paid the minimum, while the top dogs (Black and White) walk away with the loot. How can we justify a CEO of a listed company earning R60 million p.a. and the workers get R6000 pm? (R72k p.a.= 0.12% of R60 mil) Office workers may get R20 - R30k or up to R360k p.a. That is only 0.6% of the CEO's package. This happens in state owned entities as well aka Eskom, Transnet etc. Just look at the inflated packages of snr municipal managers vs workers. Our wage gap is the legacy of English and British colonialism where colonies have been exploited to the maximum. This is unsustainable and leads to discontent and mistrust and may well end in anarchy.

    What may work is the Scandinavian socialist/capitalist economic model of social democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
    In 2019, all five of the Nordic countries ranked in the top 10 on the World Happiness Report. Clearly, they must be doing something right?

    Consider a cap on the wage gap so that the R60 mil of the CEO is also shared by the workforce who are mostly living on the breadline. Should these people earn a better wage, it will increase their buying power and will be a great stimulus to the economy.
    Economics teaches us that wealth is created by the flow of money. Money lying idle in the bank is not generating wealth or prosperity, only interest to the holder. This is also seen in China (a communist country) where workers started earning more due to an increase in demand from globalization. Poor workers from rural areas could for the first time buy TV's, fridges and other consumer goods that improved their lives. Today there are many Chinese millionaires benefiting from their communist/capitalist economy, because of increased trade.

    Does our govt have the courage to admit that BEE is wrong and is not creating prosperity? Will they consider another economic model?
    When will they scrap tribalism and give rural families ownership of their land and their homes. This will give them the opportunity to get loans to educate their children, get access to funding for small business or other entrepreneurial activities. What a boost that would be to our economy.
    Excuse my ignorance ... but everyday I skim through complaints about the BBEEE ...the government ...how some rich white people people gave billions and not the blacks ...how white cant feed hungry people ...etc etc etc... and at the same time they say we can only watch and smile... its doesnt help getting angry etc etc ... it makes you wonder about the donations handed over by these rich white people ...what is in it for them... they certainly wouldn't be doing it unless there was something in it for them... the black rich dont have to do anything to get contracts... or fight for land they took when white privilege was a way of life for a minority.

    There is no law preventing people supporting small business... or helping other whites who need help....only the greedy selfishness of people who live above their means or have to prove they are better than the Jones.

    I hear contractors complaining all the time about bad workmanship ...i do it myself ... until i realised why the workmanship is so bad... you cannot expect a qualified artisan to do the work cheaper than the price of materials.

    Customers are the real problem... expecting to get work done at a labourers rate ...but expecting a qualified person with many years experience to actually do the job.

    If your quote is R10 000 and the material cost is R8000 and the labour cost is R2000 ...dont squeal like a stuffed pig when the workmanship looks like crap and you have to keep calling the person back to repair the job... you get what you pay.

    By the way you forgot to mention the unions... anyone know what the union bosses earn in comparison to the "workers".

    Its about time a real union with the workers interest at heart ... simple things like the environment we are expected to work in... the aircon in the office stops working ...they down tools and walk out the building ...real workers are expected to work in environments so uncomfortable that it should be classified as unsafe... fat boy who collects union fees arrives in his aircon BMW and shouts the odds ...tells everyone to strike "no work no pay" while his fee and salary is in the bank month after month.

    One day when people stop looking down at the real men in the world who create the 6-7 digit bank accounts for the boss man ...when office staff (overhead) earn twice what a worker (income generator )earns things will start improving.

    When you look at how much people are prepared to pay for a person to remove a drain plug from a vehicle or a "technician" with 3 days training in comparison to a qualified artisan with years of training... you start to understand why a labourer is dropped off to do a "hit and run" job.

    The whole system is screwed up.
    Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.

  9. #168
    Diamond Member Justloadit's Avatar
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    And after calling these unskilled workers repeatedly and not solving the problem they call you and complain that your fee is expensive. Had they called in the first place, they would have saved themselves 10 times what iy had cost them.

    Quick story in an apartment block where there was some plumbing work done. A tank was installed for a water reservoir to supply water when there is a mains water incoming issue. There was a booster pump.
    Funny thing was that every time that the water mains had a issue the complex had no water. They kept on calling the same plumber/electrician, and paying out call out fees for more than a year.
    Finally one of the renters was so fed up that he decided to sue the landlord if the problem was not fixed and that he better get a qualified plumber out and pay the going rate.
    Took the qualified 5 minutes to figure out that the original installer had swapped the intake and out going pipes to the booster pump. In other words, when there was mains water, it would feed the booster pump directly, and when the mains dropped away, the tank was full, but the pump was sucking from the top of the water tank, instead of the bottom. How much did it cost, not only the tenants, but the landlord, trying to save a buck.

    I hear these stories all the time.

    Had another one, solar installation. 400Km away, after inspection, the PV supply cable was nicked and open circuit during installation by a "qualified" installer who knows what he is doing. Got an earful before going out about the crappy equipment we supply. Yep ain't going to get paid for that call out unfortunately.
    Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
    Solar and LED lighting solutions - www.microsolve.co.za

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    I agree with you guys. Ethics is a big problem in business these days because we live in a gangster state where everyone sucks up to the government as they believe that they will get something out. The rich do not care because if you have money, you can change tack. Look at Bossassa and others. Fed the crooks and sucked up to them until they were caught our themselves. ...and who went to jail?!!

    It is time for people to stand up for what is right and not give in to unreasonable and crooked demands. How noble is BEE when it prevents white children from getting food parcels? How noble is BEE if our black workers are being penalised for working for a white firm? The minister has made it clear that no aid will be distributed to white firms! This impacts directly on the livelihood of our black workers and their families!
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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    This article says it all.
    12 FEBRUARY 2011
    South Africa: Only a matter of time before the bomb explodes
    by Moeletsi Mbeki: Author, political commentator and entrepreneur.

    I can predict when SA’s "Tunisia Day" will arrive. Tunisia Day is when the masses rise against the powers that be, as happened recently in Tunisia. The year will be 2020, give or take a couple of years. The year 2020 is when China estimates that its current minerals-intensive industrialisation phase will be concluded.

    For SA, this will mean the African National Congress (ANC) government will have to cut back on social grants, which it uses to placate the black poor and to get their votes. China’s current industrialisation phase has forced up the prices of SA’s minerals, which has enabled the government to finance social welfare programmes.

    The ANC inherited a flawed, complex society it barely understood; its tinkerings with it are turning it into an explosive cocktail. The ANC leaders are like a group of children playing with a hand grenade. One day one of them will figure out how to pull out the pin and everyone will be killed.

    A famous African liberation movement, the National Liberation Front of Algeria, after tinkering for 30 years, pulled the grenade pin by cancelling an election in 1991 that was won by the opposition Islamic Salvation Front. In the civil war that ensued, 200000 people were killed.

    The former British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, once commented that whoever thought that the ANC could rule SA was living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Why was Thatcher right? In the 16 years of ANC rule, all the symptoms of a government out of its depth have grown worse.

    Life expectancy has declined from 65 years to 53 years since the ANC came to power;
    In 2007, SA became a net food importer for the first time in its history;
    The elimination of agricultural subsidies by the government led to the loss of 600000 farm workers’ jobs and the eviction from the commercial farming sector of about 2,4-million people between 1997 and 2007; and
    The ANC stopped controlling the borders, leading to a flood of poor people into SA, which has led to conflicts between SA’s poor and foreign African migrants.
    What should the ANC have done, or be doing?

    The answer is quite straightforward. When they took control of the government in 1994, ANC leaders should have: identified what SA’s strengths were; identified what SA’s weaknesses were; and decided how to use the strengths to minimise and/or rectify the weaknesses.

    A wise government would have persuaded the skilled white and Indian population to devote some of their time — even an hour a week — to train the black and coloured population to raise their skill levels.

    What the ANC did instead when it came to power was to identify what its leaders and supporters wanted. It then used SA’s strengths to satisfy the short-term consumption demands of its supporters. In essence, this is what is called black economic empowerment (BEE).

    BEE promotes a number of extremely negative socioeconomic trends in our country. It promotes a class of politicians dependent on big business and therefore promotes big business’s interests in the upper echelons of government. Second, BEE promotes an anti-entrepreneurial culture among the black middle class by legitimising an environment of entitlement. Third, affirmative action, a subset of BEE, promotes incompetence and corruption in the public sector by using ruling party allegiance and connections as the criteria for entry and promotion in the public service, instead of having tough public service entry examinations.

    Let’s see where BEE, as we know it today, actually comes from. I first came across the concept of BEE from a company, which no longer exists, called Sankor. Sankor was the industrial division of Sanlam and it invented the concept of BEE.

    The first purpose of BEE was to create a buffer group among the black political class that would become an ally of big business in SA. This buffer group would use its newfound power as controllers of the government to protect the assets of big business.

    The buffer group would also protect the modus operandi of big business and thereby maintain the status quo in which South African business operates. That was the design of the big conglomerates.

    Sanlam was soon followed by Anglo American. Sanlam established BEE vehicle Nail; Anglo established Real Africa, Johnnic and so forth. The conglomerates took their marginal assets, and gave them to politically influential black people, with the purpose, in my view, not to transform the economy but to create a black political class that is in alliance with the conglomerates and therefore wants to maintain the status quo of our economy and the way in which it operates.

    But what is wrong with protecting SA’s conglomerates?

    Well, there are many things wrong with how conglomerates operate and how they have structured our economy.

    The economy has a strong built-in dependence on cheap labour;
    It has a strong built-in dependence on the exploitation of primary resources;
    It is strongly unfavourable to the development of skills in our general population;
    It has a strong bias towards importing technology and economic solutions; and
    It promotes inequality between citizens by creating a large, marginalised underclass.
    Conglomerates are a vehicle, not for creating development in SA but for exploiting natural resources without creating in-depth, inclusive social and economic development, which is what SA needs. That is what is wrong with protecting conglomerates.

    The second problem with the formula of BEE is that it does not create entrepreneurs. You are taking political leaders and politically connected people and giving them assets which, in the first instance, they don’t know how to manage. So you are not adding value. You are faced with the threat of undermining value by taking assets from people who were managing them and giving them to people who cannot manage them. BEE thus creates a class of idle rich ANC politicos.

    My quarrel with BEE is that what the conglomerates are doing is developing a new culture in SA — not a culture of entrepreneurship, but an entitlement culture, whereby black people who want to go into business think that they should acquire assets free, and that somebody is there to make them rich, rather than that they should build enterprises from the ground.

    But we cannot build black companies if what black entrepreneurs look forward to is the distribution of already existing assets from the conglomerates in return for becoming lobbyists for the conglomerates.

    The third worrying trend is that the ANC-controlled state has now internalised the BEE model. We are now seeing the state trying to implement the same model that the conglomerates developed.

    What is the state distributing? It is distributing jobs to party faithful and social welfare to the poor. This is a recipe for incompetence and corruption, both of which are endemic in SA. This is what explains the service delivery upheavals that are becoming a normal part of our environment.

    So what is the correct road SA should be travelling?

    We all accept that a socialist model, along the lines of the Soviet Union, is not workable for SA today. The creation of a state-owned economy is not a formula that is an option for SA or for many parts of the world. Therefore, if we want to develop SA instead of shuffling pre-existing wealth, we have to create new entrepreneurs, and we need to support existing entrepreneurs to diversify into new economic sectors.

    Mbeki is the author of Architects of Poverty: Why African Capitalism Needs Changing. This article forms part of a series on transformation supplied by the Centre for Development and Enterprise.
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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