Page 3 of 26 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 255

Thread: Minimum force being used.....the more things change the more they stay the same...

  1. #21
    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    22,648
    Thanks
    3,304
    Thanked 2,676 Times in 2,257 Posts
    Blog Entries
    12

    First things first

    I'm going to go with my first response to the news first.

    This is a national tragedy.

    It is a stain on every citizen of South Africa that we have a society where such an event can happen. We should all hang our heads in shame.

    It is unacceptable in a democratic society that so values individual human rights, that claims to be a humane, peace loving and compassionate society, that we should even get close to such an event happening, let alone have it actually happen.

    This morning I cried.

    I cried for the people who died.
    I cried for the people who were injured.
    I cried for the people who pulled the triggers and the leaders who led these people to this tragic moment - they will have to live with this consequence of what they have done for the rest of their lives.

    I cried for their families.
    And I cried for our country.

    This blood should not have been spilled. And as a member of this South African society that would be so great, I feel hurt and partly responsible.

  2. Thank given for this post:

    Blurock (17-Aug-12), wynn (18-Aug-12)

  3. #22
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Pretoria
    Posts
    233
    Thanks
    77
    Thanked 45 Times in 31 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    I'm going to go with my first response to the news first.

    This is a national tragedy.

    It is a stain on every citizen of South Africa that we have a society where such an event can happen. We should all hang our heads in shame.

    It is unacceptable in a democratic society that so values individual human rights, that claims to be a humane, peace loving and compassionate society, that we should even get close to such an event happening, let alone have it actually happen.

    This morning I cried.

    I cried for the people who died.
    I cried for the people who were injured.
    I cried for the people who pulled the triggers and the leaders who led these people to this tragic moment - they will have to live with this consequence of what they have done for the rest of their lives.

    I cried for their families.
    And I cried for our country.

    This blood should not have been spilled. And as a member of this South African society that would be so great, I feel hurt and partly responsible.
    There are no words that can improve on this expression of the true realities of this "our" national tragedy.
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

  4. #23
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    305
    Thanks
    112
    Thanked 53 Times in 40 Posts
    I think many of you just see what you want to see, well let me give you some pointers:
    1. You can clearly see shots fired at the police by the dust on the right side by the polceman
    2. The crowd was charing towards the police with shambocks and sticks besides the 2 firearms which we can see the police removed from the group
    3. From close distance pangas, knives, shambocks and etc can do much more damage than you can imagine and as per section 49 of the firearms control act that allows you to justify the use of deadly force
    4. Police is oly doing their job and protecting their lives as well as your lives
    5. Don't underestimate the power of 3000 people crowd
    6. Someone made a point that when there was cease fire command not everyone stopped, but from these omments I can say that none of ou has been in this situation and none of you don't realize that the policeman were on edge and that if one of the people moves they can kill someone so it's a matter of who's faster, I've been in the situation and trust me when you experience it then you will change your thinking very quick.

    Bottom line is you can talk so much how crap the police is, the leadirship and what not, yet none of you can see or appreciate what the police does for you, I'm not saying everything is perfect in the police but if there was no police ypu wouldn't be here. You chose not to see all the good things they are doing and putting their lives on the line for you and your families, all you can do is bitch and moan in which case instead of compalning go and fix it yourself then if you think it's that simple! Stop blaming people, look at ypurself first, try and get into their shoes before you judge!

    Besides everything else can noody see that this whole situation arised because of the unions that created the tention, these same unions that are supposed to stand up for their members, they are very good at getting membership fees every month, drive in fancy cars and etc while they don't give a crap what hapens to their members, they are obsessed with power and that's why this happened. They are bringing down tne economy, wasting government resources and so on but yet they are endorsed by the government itself.
    ---There is no traffic at the extra mile---

  5. #24
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Pretoria
    Posts
    233
    Thanks
    77
    Thanked 45 Times in 31 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickolai Naydenov View Post
    I think many of you just see what you want to see, well let me give you some pointers:
    1. You can clearly see shots fired at the police by the dust on the right side by the polceman
    2. The crowd was charing towards the police with shambocks and sticks besides the 2 firearms which we can see the police removed from the group
    3. From close distance pangas, knives, shambocks and etc can do much more damage than you can imagine and as per section 49 of the firearms control act that allows you to justify the use of deadly force
    4. Police is oly doing their job and protecting their lives as well as your lives
    5. Don't underestimate the power of 3000 people crowd
    6. Someone made a point that when there was cease fire command not everyone stopped, but from these omments I can say that none of ou has been in this situation and none of you don't realize that the policeman were on edge and that if one of the people moves they can kill someone so it's a matter of who's faster, I've been in the situation and trust me when you experience it then you will change your thinking very quick.

    Bottom line is you can talk so much how crap the police is, the leadirship and what not, yet none of you can see or appreciate what the police does for you, I'm not saying everything is perfect in the police but if there was no police ypu wouldn't be here. You chose not to see all the good things they are doing and putting their lives on the line for you and your families, all you can do is bitch and moan in which case instead of compalning go and fix it yourself then if you think it's that simple! Stop blaming people, look at ypurself first, try and get into their shoes before you judge!

    Besides everything else can noody see that this whole situation arised because of the unions that created the tention, these same unions that are supposed to stand up for their members, they are very good at getting membership fees every month, drive in fancy cars and etc while they don't give a crap what hapens to their members, they are obsessed with power and that's why this happened. They are bringing down tne economy, wasting government resources and so on but yet they are endorsed by the government itself.
    With the greatest respect, having a concern about the loss of so many lives is not to "bitch and moan". It is the most legitimate of concerns. The reality is -
    1. the police are accountable for their actions, like everybody else;'
    2. the State has a constitutional responsibility to PRESERVE NOT TAKE HUMAN LIFE ... EVEN THAT OF A SERIAL KILLER.
    3. life can only be taken if that is UNAVOIDABLE.
    4. it is pertinent to point out that just that morning a female police "General" predicted that "to day we are going to end this thing .. " How did she know that? When you are dealing with belligerent rioters and/or terrorists you have no way of knowing when the thing will end UNLESS YOU ARE INTENDING TO END IT WITH LETHAL FORCE.
    5. the video footage comes no where near showing that that any police officer was in actual danger of immediate death or serious injury --- only that a group split in their direction after being teargassed. Even if it is accepted that this was an armed charge the first option should have been rubber bullets and stun grenades .. then a line of fire ahead of the charge .... But, of course, you won't have such a pre-planned, practiced course of action if you don't understand point 2 above.
    6. what speaks volumes is that calls to "cease fire" go unheeded .. and officers that are actually behind front line officers, who are Not firing, continue firing at people on the ground, having been mowed down by machine gun fire. Apart from showing these bright sparks up as "jumpy" it means that even the "chain of command under fire" had not been set and drilled.

    7. I can not be expected to be grateful that the police otherwise do the good job of protecting me and you. That is their job. That is what they are paid to do.

    8. I can accept that the video footage gives a limited view of things. However, as a person who was trained in the use of lethal force, it is blindingly obvious to me that it cannot be said that killing was unavoidable.

    To conclude, the Sate can never be at war with its own citizens, regardless of haw bad they are. It cannot have a mode of "kill or be killed". The duty of the police in this situation was to bring it to a safe conclusion without avoidable loss of life. It failed.
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

  6. #25
    Diamond Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6,329
    Thanks
    426
    Thanked 978 Times in 795 Posts
    Interesting but the fact remains that the police should not have put themselves in that position. Members of the police choose their vocation, nobody forces them to do the job so there is no excuse for doing a bad job. They are paid to uphold the law and they are paid, by their own choice, to put their lives at risk. If you go to a restaurant and the service is crap then you compain, not so, you expect to be served properly. The same goes for the police, we expect to be served properly, if they can't do the work then they should seek a vocation better suited to themselves. I have no sympathy for them or for any other person doing any other job, you choose to do it so you must do it properly or not do it at all.

  7. Thanks given for this post:

    ChrisNG53 (19-Aug-12)

  8. #26
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Pretoria
    Posts
    233
    Thanks
    77
    Thanked 45 Times in 31 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianh View Post
    Interesting but the fact remains that the police should not have put themselves in that position. Members of the police choose their vocation, nobody forces them to do the job so there is no excuse for doing a bad job. They are paid to uphold the law and they are paid, by their own choice, to put their lives at risk. If you go to a restaurant and the service is crap then you compain, not so, you expect to be served properly. The same goes for the police, we expect to be served properly, if they can't do the work then they should seek a vocation better suited to themselves. I have no sympathy for them or for any other person doing any other job, you choose to do it so you must do it properly or not do it at all.
    Eloquently put eminent Counsel ... and just to add .. we pay them . .and they take an oath to uphold the Constitution.
    Let us have the conversation!
    Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sum

  9. #27
    Diamond Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6,329
    Thanks
    426
    Thanked 978 Times in 795 Posts
    I can think of a perfect analogy for the situation. Aircraft pilots stall a trans-continental jet over the ocean due to bad judgement (let's say they airspeed indicators fail - aka Air France flight 447). They execute recovery maneuvers and end up ditching the plane. All aboard are killed. The pilots union then claim that all they could do was to ditch the plane because they were under so much stress from having to deal with multiple system failures...

    These are the issues:
    1. The pilots chose their vocation and they accepted their wings as proof of their ability to cope with all situations that may arise in the cockpit.
    2. The pilots did not follow procedure when the air speed indicators failed.
    3. The pilots took the wrong course of action to rectify their mistake.

    Does everybody now say that one shouldn't blame the pilots because their jobs are very stressfull and that we should also be thankfull that they are willing to fly the aircraft?
    .
    ...I think not...

    I think that this matter ties in perfectly with the discussion on choosing to overlook mistakes and transgressions of "those who are like us"
    Last edited by adrianh; 19-Aug-12 at 10:30 AM.

  10. #28
    Platinum Member desA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    South East Asia
    Posts
    1,023
    Thanks
    512
    Thanked 126 Times in 99 Posts
    Pre Mandela's release : Apartheid & unlawful government
    Post Mandela's release : Not our fault.

    In reality, "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".

    It is time that SA citizens, of all persuasions, cultures, creeds - take stock of the low that SA has moved into. Something has to be done. The current 'government' is abysmal & clearly incapable of maintaining law-&-order in a civilised manner.

    A terrible tragedy any way it is looked at.
    In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

  11. Thanks given for this post:

    Blurock (19-Aug-12)

  12. #29
    Diamond Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    planet earth
    Posts
    3,943
    Thanks
    153
    Thanked 317 Times in 287 Posts
    I have been in a similar situation, held up in a police station which was stormed by a mob, during the apartheid era. Daves post #21 sums it up pretty well, how i feel.

    I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just that i would like to see your reaction in a situation like this.

    I am assuming that most of you sit with the cutain pulled slightly open to watch, but dont actually go out and help when you hear your neighbour screaming for help, because you dont want to be put in that situation that you might be killed or kill someone.

  13. Thanks given for this post:

    Nickolai Naydenov (19-Aug-12)

  14. #30
    Diamond Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6,329
    Thanks
    426
    Thanked 978 Times in 795 Posts
    It is not about what we, the average man in the street will do in the situation. It is about what 'trained' police members did.

    Apples & pears......

Page 3 of 26 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Pastel V11 - Change in year end and change in # of periods
    By OlgaSaavedra in forum Accounting Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-Jul-15, 07:07 PM
  2. [Question] How much money should stay in your business?
    By rfnel in forum General Business Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-Feb-12, 10:49 AM
  3. To stay or go.
    By Dave A in forum South African Politics Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 25-Feb-08, 06:11 PM
  4. New rules for SMS spam come into force
    By Eugene in forum General Business Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 21-Aug-07, 09:41 AM

Did you like this article? Share it with your favourite social network.

Did you like this article? Share it with your favourite social network.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •